Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

How and what to teach and learn.
Post Reply
trombinstharry
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:22 pm

Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by trombinstharry » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:14 pm

Good afternoon TC, I recently switched from a Bach 1 1/4 g bass trombone mouthpiece to a King 29 and with that, I lost a big chunk of my pedal register. Beforehand, I could play pedal Fs and Es like they're nothing but now, I have to change my embouchure greatly to play them and they sound horrible. Everything after pedal G is iffy, any tips on getting my pedals bacK? In a little under a month I have to play Patrick McCartry's Sonata for Bass Trombone for Solo and Ensemble and that goes to the pedal F and E land. Please help, thank you
Doug Elliott
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:21 pm

Go back the bigger mouthpiece. Problem solved.
harrisonreed
Posts: 641
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by harrisonreed » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:27 pm

BOOOOOOM! Knowledge bomb dropped!
Corey
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 12:48 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Corey » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:36 pm

It is indeed as simple as Doug suggests. But if you want the challenge, practice. You'll have to figure out a way to make the buzz in a different way. The MPC you had has a certain resistance based on turbulence (cup shape) and throat, which you've become accustomed to blowing against. You've "figured out" how to make the buzz in this context (even if not a conscious effort). New MPC means new adjustments. Playing pedals on a 12C requires a different approach than a bass mpc.

Rim size also has an effect. Lower notes need a Larger aperture, and the way you make that aperture is different from small to large rim.
Doubler
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Doubler » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:17 pm

trombinstharry wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:14 pm
Good afternoon TC, I recently switched from a Bach 1 1/4 g bass trombone mouthpiece to a King 29 and with that, I lost a big chunk of my pedal register. Beforehand, I could play pedal Fs and Es like they're nothing but now, I have to change my embouchure greatly to play them and they sound horrible. Everything after pedal G is iffy, any tips on getting my pedals bacK? In a little under a month I have to play Patrick McCartry's Sonata for Bass Trombone for Solo and Ensemble and that goes to the pedal F and E land. Please help, thank you
Why did you switch?
Current instruments:
Olds Studio trombone, 3 trumpets, 1 flugelhorn, 1 cornet, 1 shofar, 1 keyboard

Previous trombones:
Selmer Bundy, Marceau
Redthunder
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:11 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Redthunder » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Corey wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:36 pm
It is indeed as simple as Doug suggests. But if you want the challenge, practice. You'll have to figure out a way to make the buzz in a different way. The MPC you had has a certain resistance based on turbulence (cup shape) and throat, which you've become accustomed to blowing against. You've "figured out" how to make the buzz in this context (even if not a conscious effort). New MPC means new adjustments. Playing pedals on a 12C requires a different approach than a bass mpc.

Rim size also has an effect. Lower notes need a Larger aperture, and the way you make that aperture is different from small to large rim.
Or, alternatively, the smaller rim size is simply wrong for OPs face and no amount of practice will yield better results than the larger rim.
Doug Elliott
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:47 pm

trombinstharry wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:14 pm
In a little under a month I have to play Patrick McCartry's Sonata for Bass Trombone for Solo and Ensemble and that goes to the pedal F and E land.
You could use the next three weeks on productive practice of the piece.
Or you could spend it struggling to get the notes out while dealing with a destructive shift you didn't have before.
trombinstharry
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:22 pm

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by trombinstharry » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:15 pm

The reason I switched was because my upper register was just not working on the bigger mp. I suppose for my solo I could still use the bigger mp, but I think that after this I might switch to the King. What's a way to get my pedals back on this smaller mouthpiece, but with no time constraints?
Doug Elliott
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:01 pm

Or what's the way to get your high range working on the larger mouthpiece...
ZacharyThornton
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 am

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by ZacharyThornton » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:50 pm

It is much easier to get a good high range through practice on a decent normal sized bass trombone piece, than to get a low range on a mouthpiece that doesn’t work for you.
Shires Lone Star Bass
Greg Black mouthpieces
Corey
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 12:48 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by Corey » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:24 pm

I don't think there's any easy way, but if you transition to a similar mouthpiece you'd have better luck. The King 29 is very different than a Bach 1 1/4. A slightly smaller variation would be an easier transition. Personally, I find 2-3 weeks is need to feel comfortable and more like a month to feel "at home" with a new mouthpiece.
PaulT
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:55 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by PaulT » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:04 pm

Is a larger mouthpiece always better? What if it is a small bore horn? Still go as large as you can play?

Won't a large mouthpiece always have an edge with the lowest notes and the smaller have the edge with the highest? Isn't there a choice to be made somewhere, up or down? Or just go with the biggest you can play and work to develop what's missing?

Should I be putting a 5G or similar in my .508 instead of my 7C and just get used to it?
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:40 pm

PaulT wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Is a larger mouthpiece always better? What if it is a small bore horn? Still go as large as you can play?

Won't a large mouthpiece always have an edge with the lowest notes and the smaller have the edge with the highest? Isn't there a choice to be made somewhere, up or down? Or just go with the biggest you can play and work to develop what's missing?

Should I be putting a 5G or similar in my .508 instead of my 7C and just get used to it?
Please. Take a deep breath and calm down.

Each of us needs a different sized mouthpiece for our embouchure. And the embouchure may change with practice.

Going from a larger to a smaller mouthpiece generally results in loss of the lower register. Going from a smaller to a larger mouthpiece generally results in a loss of upper register.

Maybe the King 29 is too much of a step from the 1 1/4 G. It's really more of a 4G-ish piece (at least mine is). A better compromise might be a 2G or 1 1/2 G, but it's really too late to start with a new mouthpiece so close to you Solo and Ensemble. My recommendation is to make the 1 1/4 G work. Do some rangebuilding execises (the Remington "Security in the Upper Register" is my personal favorite). Don't overdo the rangebuilding. If things don't work STOP. Try again in 2 days.

The right mouthpiece for a small bore is also different for everybody. If a 7C is working for you, don't change it. Some use 11C or 12C mouthpieces. Tommy Dosey's mouthpiece was the equivalent of a Bach 22C. I use the equivalent of a Bach 4C on my small bore.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
GBP
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:08 am

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by GBP » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:35 am

PaulT wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Is a larger mouthpiece always better? What if it is a small bore horn? Still go as large as you can play?

Won't a large mouthpiece always have an edge with the lowest notes and the smaller have the edge with the highest? Isn't there a choice to be made somewhere, up or down? Or just go with the biggest you can play and work to develop what's missing?

Should I be putting a 5G or similar in my .508 instead of my 7C and just get used to it?
There are not those kind of absolutes in playing. It is important for a player to find what works best for them. Go back to what you were playing because switching equipment during times of high stress doesn’t give a player a chance to slowly acclimate to the equipment change. Find find someone knowledgeable to help you.
imsevimse
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Lost pedals with smaller mouthpiece

Post by imsevimse » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:05 pm

I think it is wrong to decide first what mouthpiece to choose and then struggle to make that one to work. There are lots of other mouthpieces you could try. Personally I like the 1 1/4 size very much on bass trombone. I don't think of that is a very large bass trombone mouthpiece.

As someone said you could try a 2G, but if you loose your pedals then this might be to small.

I think on an 11C the pedals down to G should work with a normal emboushure. You could practice pedals on a tenor just to get a feel of what your lips need to do. A larger mouthpiece might cover bad technique in the pedal register. Don't be to loose in your mouth corners when you practice the pedals. There needs a lot of activity to play good pedals and not "blatty" pedals.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
Post Reply

Return to “Teaching & Learning”