Serafin Alschausky patent

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JesusVicente
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Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by JesusVicente » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:08 am

Hello, I wonder if that patent was ever built. I guess, not confortable and smooth enough, specially while you are moving the four slides :wink:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1428675.pdf
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by sirisobhakya » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 am

Compensating F valve? Interesting, but seems heavy. And if the valve is in the usualposition, there have to be a fancy tubing (and bracing) job to do...
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Bart
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by Bart » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:43 am

Interesting design! Probably very slide-heavy though...

I found this picture of such a trombone pitched in F / A flat:
csm_4786_www01_1980-2721_shmpop_c6397_posaune_1e8ef64d24.jpg
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For the record: this comes from the website of the Historic Museum Basel: https://www.hmb.ch/sammlung/object/alt- ... atent.html
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JohnL
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by JohnL » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:45 am

sirisobhakya wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 am
Compensating F valve?
If I read the patent correctly, the valve's standing position has both sets of slide tubes active, placing the horn in Bb; depressing the valve control removes one set of slide tubes and raises the the key a fifth to F.

I can see some significant challenges in the building of a working model, let alone mass production.
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:31 am

So that picture is with the slide extended. Very small positions.
Very interesting but I think very impractical... but still very interesting.
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by AndrewMeronek » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am

That might be pretty difficult to get used to. Observe that because of the way that valve works, not only will the pitch change, but slide positions change with the pitch change.
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by paulyg » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:10 pm

My first thought is THAT IS SOOOOOOOO COOL

Also, that bell bend is a work of art. Ascending valves seem to not be that useful for trombones; maybe this design has some utility, however.

One could use a similar approach for a contrabass trombone. Make the slide valve descending, and add a second valve "conventionally" placed in the bell section. The instrument, while still heavy, would be much better balanced and compact than traditional contras.
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Robindubois
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by Robindubois » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:04 am

Have a look at this.
It's Chinese and it's in plastic!!
If someone would buy it just out of curiosity 😁

ABS plastic construction Tromba TPJ-SL Plastic Jazz bone-silver, Bb Tenor
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bQBRa2FW
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Burgerbob
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by Burgerbob » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:09 am

Robindubois wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:04 am
Have a look at this.
It's Chinese and it's in plastic!!
If someone would buy it just out of curiosity 😁

ABS plastic construction Tromba TPJ-SL Plastic Jazz bone-silver, Bb Tenor
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bQBRa2FW
Not quite. That's just a double slide.
timothy42b
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by timothy42b » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:56 am

Ah, the Jazzbone. I didn't know it had made it into production. The inventor was a member on the old Trombone Forum page, now defunct. (the page is defunct, not the inventor.) He saw it as an improvement on the DEG Quadraslide idea, and his ideas made sense to me. But it seemed like it would be very tricky to execute and still get a good slide, and with short positions you would need a really good slide. My pBone slides are not great, especially the alto, otherwise I'd play them more.
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by Robindubois » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:26 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:09 am
Robindubois wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:04 am
Have a look at this.
It's Chinese and it's in plastic!!
If someone would buy it just out of curiosity 😁

ABS plastic construction Tromba TPJ-SL Plastic Jazz bone-silver, Bb Tenor
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/bQBRa2FW
Not quite. That's just a double slide.
Oh yes you're right. I just got excited too quickly.
I still wounder how good this instrument would play.
bcschipper
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by bcschipper » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:10 pm

There are precursors to trombones with valves in the slide section. Kruspe has a patent from 1906 for a combined alto-tenor trombone with a valve in the slide section. Rumors have that Robert Mueller developed it with Kruspe. It doesn't have a double slide. But double slides were already around as well. There is one made by Piering in 1903 in the Musikinstrumente Museum Leipzig.

The photo from Museum in Basel is actually one that was built according to the Alschausky patent. It has Alschausky engraved on it. Apparently Alschausky developed it with Leopold Mitsching in Elberfeld. (Monke learned from Mitsching.) It was built by Bohland & Fuchs though, just across the border from Markneukirchen. Late in his time at the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Alschausky applied for a permit to trade with brass instruments. This instrument was build around that time. There are patents in Germany, Switzerland, and the US. He offered "Sopran-tenor-posaunen" with a range of 4 1/2 octaves. It seems that he also traded with them when he move to the US, first to Cincinnati and then to LA. He didn't build them, just let them be built (probably at Bohland & Fuchs) and traded.

Earlier Alschausky complained about the quality of instrument makers in Markneukirchen like Piering and also about some instrument makers in Leipzig. There is a photo of him from 1910 playing a Kruspe which looks like a precursor of a Kruspe Weschke.

Werner Chr. Schmidt in Markneukirchen offers an Alschausky mouthpiece. It has a very deep cup and a huge rim although the cup diameter is not big. Previously, I heard somebody mentioning that it was made for him after some injury (although I never figured this out completely). I have one and it is not very playable (except it might be the best mouthpiece to use after 8 hours of straight playing).

Anyway, this guy was pretty prolific: solo trombonist, playing in orchestra, composer, trading with instruments, designing instruments, running a music school ...

There is an article about him by Rolf Handrow in "Die Deutsche Posaune - Ein Leipziger Welterfolg", Katalog zur Sonderausstellung im Grassi Museum fuer Musikinstrumente der Universitaet Leipzig, edited by the Verein fuer Mitteldeutsche Posaunengeschichte (Association for Middle German Trombone History).
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heinzgries
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by heinzgries » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:26 am

bcschipper wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:10 pm
There are precursors to trombones with valves in the slide section. Kruspe has a patent from 1906 for a combined alto-tenor trombone with a valve in the slide section. Rumors have that Robert Mueller developed it with Kruspe. It doesn't have a double slide.
is a picture avaiable from the Kruspe alto-tenor trombone with a valve in the slide section?
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by BillO » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:29 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am
That might be pretty difficult to get used to. Observe that because of the way that valve works, not only will the pitch change, but slide positions change with the pitch change.
Yes, of course. Just like a tenor trombone with F-att, or a single/double valve bass trombone.

My double independent bass has no less than 4 different series' of slide positions.

I'm guessing you play a straight horn. :wink:
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by bcschipper » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:15 am

heinzgries wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:26 am
bcschipper wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:10 pm
There are precursors to trombones with valves in the slide section. Kruspe has a patent from 1906 for a combined alto-tenor trombone with a valve in the slide section. Rumors have that Robert Mueller developed it with Kruspe. It doesn't have a double slide.
is a picture avaiable from the Kruspe alto-tenor trombone with a valve in the slide section?
Yes, there is a picture on p. 97 in "Die Deutsche Posaune - Ein Leipziger Welterfolg", Katalog zur Sonderausstellung im Grassi Museum fuer Musikinstrumente der Universitaet Leipzig, edited by the Verein fuer Mitteldeutsche Posaunengeschichte, 2nd edition, 2013. It also says that the document is owned by Peter Heldmann, der last owner of Ed. Kruspe. There is actually a picture with two versions of the Kruspe alto-tenor trombone with valve section in the slide.

Since you are in Germany, you can easily get the catalog from the museum. It is a very nice book anyway. It also has photos of two Sattler alto trombones, two Penzel alto trombones, and an 1720th alto trombone by Ehe with some measurements. If you have problems getting the book, I can scan the page with the picture of the Kruspe Alt-Tenor-Posaune with valve in the slide section and email it to you.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Serafin Alschausky patent

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:08 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:31 am
So that picture is with the slide extended. Very small positions.
Very interesting but I think very impractical... but still very interesting.
Short positions yes, but it's in F, so actually not that short. The question is more whether it's more practical to have a double slide, a long slide with a handle or a slide too short to have more than 5 solid positions with extra valves to compensate for that like a modern F contra.

Some guy in the 19th century invented a tenor with a shortened bell section and a double slide that gives you 9 or 10 positions, though. That must have been a bit crazy to switch to from a normal tenor!
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