slide extender

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ennisdavis
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slide extender

Post by ennisdavis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:24 pm

where can i get a slide extender? they seem to be discontinued or out of stock
Doubler
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Re: slide extender

Post by Doubler » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:18 pm

You may have to improvise. You can put together something like this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1751930 from PVC tubing.

Or, if that doesn't work, try this:
Current instruments:
Olds Studio trombone, 3 trumpets, 1 flugelhorn, 1 cornet, 1 shofar, 1 keyboard

Previous trombones:
Selmer Bundy, Marceau
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Matt K
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Re: slide extender

Post by Matt K » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am

What do you mean by slide extender?
harrisonreed
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Re: slide extender

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:12 am

Like the DEG slide extender that helps kids get to 7th position.

Discontinued, because it doesn't really work well.
ennisdavis
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Re: slide extender

Post by ennisdavis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:27 am

my son cant reach 6 or 7
Doug Elliott
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Re: slide extender

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:47 am

When I started at 8 years old I could almost reach 6th. I used a string.
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Kingfan
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Re: slide extender

Post by Kingfan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:06 pm

This is what is being discussed. https://www.wwbw.com/DEG-Trombone-Hand- ... 65759.wwbw. I just called my local tech and he said he can't get them either. I remember back in the late 70s Alan Kofsky of the Cleveland Orchestra was teaching a kid with a prosthesis instead of a right hand using what looked like a homemade slide extender. No idea who made it, though. Give me half an hour at the hardware store and another hour or two screwing things up in the workshop, then a return trip to the hardware store to get what I forget the first trip, and another hour of cursing and cutting myself on tools, I could cobble something together. If you know a handy person where you live, maybe they can do the same.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
King 2B, 3B, 3B-F, 4B-F, Holton TR-180.
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ghmerrill
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Re: slide extender

Post by ghmerrill » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:56 pm

I can say with some confidence, based on experience, that you've seriously underestimated the number of trips to the hardware store (assuming you can find one near you nowadays). It would be better take the horn and your tools to the hardware store and do this project on site. There would be a huge saving in time and fuel consumption.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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Kingfan
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Re: slide extender

Post by Kingfan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:18 pm

ghmerrill wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:56 pm
I can say with some confidence, based on experience, that you've seriously underestimated the number of trips to the hardware store (assuming you can find one near you nowadays). It would be better take the horn and your tools to the hardware store and do this project on site. There would be a huge saving in time and fuel consumption.
Had no idea you had seen me in action! :biggrin:
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
King 2B, 3B, 3B-F, 4B-F, Holton TR-180.
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JohnL
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Re: slide extender

Post by JohnL » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:46 pm

A lot of the little doo-dads that used to be sold by DEG seem to have disappeared. I dug up an article from about a year ago that said that St. Louis Music had acquired the DEG's line of accessories.
https://www.stlouismusic.com/st-louis-m ... -business/
Bonearzt
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Re: slide extender

Post by Bonearzt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:28 pm

Wouldn't be too hard to fashion something similar to the handle used on the older Gb basses & contras, a swivel on the crossbrace and some kind of rod to hold on to.


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sungfw
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Re: slide extender

Post by sungfw » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:10 am

No sense in making things more complicated than they need to be: tighten down a zip tie around the crossbrace and use the tail as the handle. Done. Quick, easy, cheap.

Or, as Doug Elliott mentioned, use a piece of string.
timothy42b
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Re: slide extender

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:37 am

Kingfan wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:18 pm
ghmerrill wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:56 pm
I can say with some confidence, based on experience, that you've seriously underestimated the number of trips to the hardware store (assuming you can find one near you nowadays). It would be better take the horn and your tools to the hardware store and do this project on site. There would be a huge saving in time and fuel consumption.
Had no idea you had seen me in action! :biggrin:
Pretty sure every project I've ever done has taken three trips:
One to buy the parts I think I need.
The second to buy the parts I really need.
The third to replace the parts I broke or dropped down the drain, etc.

The current ongoing project is to repair a broken B21 (it's an airgun, a Chinese clone of a German one, that may not have worked when I got it. Can't remember. It's been broken for at least 10 years, since 2008, when I got it out of storage. ) Disassembling takes a spring compressor - that was three trips on its own. Wood the neighbor put out with the trash, nuts and bolts from home depot, a scissors jack from the thrift store. I got energetic a couple weeks ago, probably from the prednisone, and took it apart. So I ordered the parts online. (counts as 4th trip.) The spring compressor broke during disassembly so - three more trips, to Walmart, Harbor Freight, and Home Depot, to rebuild that in a safer fashion. I'm at 7 trips and it's still in pieces on my project table, but I'm getting close.

The sad thing is this is nowhere near the record for repeat trips. On the other hand, most projects eventually succeed. Persistence is your friend, almost substitutes for skill.

That zip tie is a great idea. Plus it can stay on the horn and will still fit in the case. Awesome!

It gives me an idea for attaching Ken's cantilever support to my valve trombone. But that project is way down in the queue.
Mamaposaune
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Re: slide extender

Post by Mamaposaune » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:24 am

I don't think they work, either. Years ago I had a student that tried one, and I also bought one for my younger son when he started in 4th grade. (I may still have it around, if I can find it you can have it for a few bucks shipping) They quickly gave up using it because 1) it constantly had to be re-tightened, and 2) it was very awkward in positions 1-4. When I tried it, (and I'm permanently 7th-poition impaired) there was no feel for where the positions should be, and I sounded like my beginner students.
IMO, just have him/her play on a normal straight tenor, it will only be a year or two before they can reach 6th, and they generally don't need 7th until 8th or 9th grade anyhow.
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ghmerrill
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Re: slide extender

Post by ghmerrill » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:32 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:37 am

Pretty sure every project I've ever done has taken three trips:
One to buy the parts I think I need.
The second to buy the parts I really need.
The third to replace the parts I broke or dropped down the drain, etc.
This is accurate -- except that I find that with advanced age there is a tendency for the process to iterate. :(
Persistence is your friend, almost substitutes for skill.
Plus, it is one way in which skill is acquired.

I have my own slide extender built into my horn -- in fact two of them. They're very effective and I use them all the time. I think I'd recommend a similar approach for anyone having trouble with 6th and 7th position. I realize that this is heresy in terms of traditional trombone pedagogy. But if the alternative being suggested is some sort of Rube Goldberg device just to reach those two positions (and which, along with the habits it induces, will then be discarded at a later time when new habits can be learned), then the Rube Goldberg approach seems not to be the obviously better choice. :?
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
timothy42b
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Re: slide extender

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:55 am

ghmerrill wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:32 am

I have my own slide extender built into my horn -- in fact two of them. They're very effective and I use them all the time. I think I'd recommend a similar approach for anyone having trouble with 6th and 7th position.
If they have or can afford a valve, why not? I'd rather have someone become dependent on a valve than develop an ear for playing B and C way sharp because "everybody should learn the straight horn first."
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ghmerrill
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Re: slide extender

Post by ghmerrill » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:28 am

Yeah, I'm sure there are a number of issues surrounding the use of horns with F valves for beginning students -- including the availability and price of "student" horns from the "usual suppliers", questions regarding rental horns with F attachments, regulations that may be imposed by school districts, etc. But I do wonder whether at this point any movement in that direction is mostly a result of ossified processes and (to a lesser degree) pedagogical ideology.

My sense is that the rental market for middle school students is a profitable and resistant industry for several reasons, although I know some parents who have caught on quickly to the fact that they can buy a quite useable Chinese horn with an F attachment for less than they're likely to be milked for a rental over time. But it's complicated because most wouldn't even want to go in that direction if they didn't have confidence that the kid would be sticking with it for more than a few months. In our own similar case (decades ago) our son was "started" on oboe even though he was committed to going with bassoon. So a 3-month rental was still wiser than buying an oboe for that amount of time (and still would be, for any playable oboe). After a summer of oboe lessons and a statement that "Enough of the oboe," we got him a used bassoon and he was off and running. I sure see a huge number of student trombones for sale on Craig's list that haven't been used for more than a few months or maybe a year or two. Replacing all those with F attachment horns would bring the cost down on the valved horns.

One other issue often raised is that the F attachment horn is heavier and more difficult for a beginning (say 6th grade) student to handle and play. I just can't buy that -- especially if a genuine line of "introductory" student horns was developed. Maybe these already exist. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there are valved horns already out there that would be perfectly fine for a standard size 6th grader.

Certainly for any parent already considering buying a horn, one with an attachment seems something to realistically consider. Of course, this in turn raises the question of whether the instructor would be able to handle that situation. In my own case (centuries ago, going into 6th grade), I desperately wanted to play trombone but was told by the instrumental teacher that my arms weren't long enough (actually false) and so ended up with a saxophone! The instructor was a violinist, a regular little martinet, and a terrible teacher -- especially for wind instruments. I can't imagine what he'd have done with a student and an F attachment trombone.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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Kingfan
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Re: slide extender

Post by Kingfan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:10 pm

I like the zip tie idea. Big zip tie around the slide brace, use smaller zip ties to attach a piece of round wood like a cut-off broom handle to the tail of the big zip tie. It would to the job until the kid's arms grow or the horn shrinks in the wash!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
King 2B, 3B, 3B-F, 4B-F, Holton TR-180.
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BillO
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Re: slide extender

Post by BillO » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:01 pm

ennisdavis wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:24 pm
where can i get a slide extender? they seem to be discontinued or out of stock
Trade the trombone in on one with an F-attachment. A used King 607F might do. Or if the medium bore is too much, then a Jupiter JTB710F.
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Kingfan
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Re: slide extender

Post by Kingfan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:23 pm

BillO wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:01 pm
ennisdavis wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:24 pm
where can i get a slide extender? they seem to be discontinued or out of stock
Trade the trombone in on one with an F-attachment. A used King 607F might do. Or if the medium bore is too much, then a Jupiter JTB710F.
I see lots of playable straight student horns for sale in my area for $100 to $200, but one with an F attachment that isn't an cheap imported TSO (Trombone Shaped Object) with a trigger is $600 or higher. Lots cheaper to get a slide extender. The kid will grow!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
King 2B, 3B, 3B-F, 4B-F, Holton TR-180.
Doug Elliott
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Re: slide extender

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:04 pm

Don't give the kid anything past 5th position.
Or get him an alto.
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ghmerrill
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Re: slide extender

Post by ghmerrill » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:08 am

Well, ... https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... -trombone/

Without actually trying this, it would be premature to think it's just a TSO. My Schiller (also in the "American Heritage" line -- whatever that means :lol: :lol: :? ) worked just fine as it arrived at my door. Of course, it would be taking a chance. And it is a large bore tenor with an F attachment. So perhaps not ideal even if it works well.

And here's an alto for under $300: https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... -trombone/.

Sure these aren't professional level horns, or horns that you'd keep and will to your grandchildren, or even horns that you might want to be playing in another three years (though they might be -- hard to tell). But aren't we talking about a kid who can't reach 6th/7th position and for whom a good "keeper" of a horn seems like bit of a wonky idea?

Maybe think of this as the Harbor Freight of trombones? I have some HF tools that are actually as good as the branded products they're copied from. Just a thought.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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Kingfan
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Re: slide extender

Post by Kingfan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:10 am

Perfect example of what I mean by a cheap imported TSO. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Muslady-Interm ... ition=1000
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
King 2B, 3B, 3B-F, 4B-F, Holton TR-180.
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ghmerrill
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Re: slide extender

Post by ghmerrill » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:03 pm

Kingfan wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:10 am
Perfect example of what I mean by a cheap imported TSO. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Muslady-Interm ... ition=1000
A demo/test/review of that horn:

Certainly some problematic and odd design/use issues that are best avoided. On the other hand, I've yet to see those sorts of problems on any Chinese instruments I've personally seen (from such vendors as Mack Brass, Wessex, and Schiller).
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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