Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

mickael57280
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Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:27 am

Hi, I started playing trombone 4 years ago but the more I progress the more I feel something is wrong with my mouthpiece.

It's like it's only contact up and down and not left and right on my face, and when I play loud or high and my corners come closer to my teeth and get firmer, air leak on the left and right sides.
But I'm sure it's not my corners that are leaking but more between my lips and the mouthpiece because my teeth curve is too pronouced.

It's a post I have seen on the chisham forum that made me realize that.
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php ... 0&start=40
(at the end of the last page with the facial structure pic)

What do you think?

Thank you
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:45 am

What mouthpiece are you using? That might help a lot.

For most trombone mouthpieces you would need to have a pronounced arch to the front of your mouth. Or maybe have teeth that need straightening.

Could you have better luck with a much smaller mouthpiece? Or maybe an instrument that uses a smaller mouthpiece like a trumpet or French Horn?
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:50 am

I wouldn't say incompatible, but it may be challenging.
The jaw's curvature is one factor that can influence your mouthpiece choice or specifics of your playing technique, but there are other things too. This is the stuff that I teach in individual lessons because everybody's different and you need to find the details that work best for you.

And, if you don't know, I make my own brand of mouthpieces with a very diverse selection of rim sizes and shapes, and I have made custom rims with a curvature for that purpose, but I don't necessarily recommend going that direction.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:51 am

I use a Yamaha 48, playing a large bore trombone, it's the smallest I can find.

I plan to make a living of it (gigs, teaching) so switching is not an option.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 am

A small size may or may not be the best solution.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:01 am

Doug what do you think about it?

I notice it happens more often when playing with a mute, maybe the added back pressure?
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:03 pm

Here is a video link
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by cigmar » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm

The first thing I noticed is you take your breath, set your embouchure and corners, then when you attack the note your corners draw back toward more of a smile setting. I would begin by addressing this, what I believe, undesirable motion. Prior to the attack it appears you have a pretty good workable setting. But then you change it. Once the corners are set, I believe it would be detrimental to move them, especially in the direction of a smile, when the attack commences.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:41 pm

Thanks cogmar, if Doug can comment too...
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:51 pm

It is possible to relearn from a smile embouchure. There are probably different methods to do this. If it is a road you want to go I can tell you I have done it. I did a complete change in my teens under supervision of a great teacher. My teacher said I had a smile emboushure. I did not even know what that was back then. He said I could keep it and be successful, but probably not have a great high register. He did say there were examples of people who became successful with a smile, but most don't play like that, they instead use a puckered emboushure. I did not know what that was either. The desiscion to change was completely my own and I did the change that very day. With my smile emboushure I had a very bad high register and a fairly good low register.

/Tom
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by cigmar » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:08 pm

imsevimse wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:51 pm
It is possible to relearn from a smile embouchure. There are probably different methods to do this. If it is a road you want to go I can tell you I have done it. I did a complete change in my teens under supervision of a great teacher. My teacher said that I had a smile emboushure. He said I could keep it and be successful but probably not have a great high register. He did say there was people who are successful with a smile but most use a puckered emboushure. The desiscion to change was completely my own and I did the change that very day. With my smile emboushure I had a very bad high register and a fairly good low register.

/Tom
Tom is absolutely correct. I too had a smile embouchure in my teens and did a complete make-over to a pucker, corners firm and down setting. It was a long road, but well worth it. And I do believe your embouchure would be labeled as a "smile" given the setting it goes to when you attack and then remains there. Best thing you could do is set up some lessons with Doug ASAP.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:12 pm

I wouldn't necessarily call that a smile embouchures but it's in that direction.

The way to fix what you're doing is to reverse it - pull your corners back to breathe, and push them forward to play.

I will leave it at that. Do it.

If you want more do a Skype lesson.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:35 am

Thanks all
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:07 am

I've tried to pucked more, it leaks even more and can't get higher than a tuning Bb.

Why I don't have problem when I try a trumpet mouthpiece?
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by cigmar » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:15 am

mickael57280 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:07 am
I've tried to pucked more, it leaks even more and can't get higher than a tuning Bb.

Why I don't have problem when I try a trumpet mouthpiece?
I say it just one more time.... Set up some lessons with Doug.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:15 am

Don't know if it's helpful behind a camera
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:02 pm

I do Skype lessons all the time. I can see exactly what you're doing and fix any issues.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:14 pm

Doug how do you explain that I have no leak buzzing on a trumpet mouthpiece ?
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by bimmerman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:45 pm

Seriously, set up a skype lesson with Doug-- he's helped me via Skype to work out a number of embouchure and playing mechanics-related issues. I can't recommend taking lessons with him enough, he is a great teacher and very knowledgeable about the subject.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 pm

mickael57280 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:14 pm
Doug how do you explain that I have no leak buzzing on a trumpet mouthpiece ?
I don't think it is possible to answer that question without another video. I guess it is simply because the trumpet mouthpiece is smaller and that the rim seal tight despite you draw your mouthcorners back when you play. The smile emboushure has the drawback you will not seal tight, without more pressure. Of course it depends on the structure of your teeth too. Most people have not a straight front row of teeth, they sit in a curved row. When you pull your mouth corners back the lips get very thin and get the contour of the curved row of your teeth. That could cause a leak. If you press harder the lips will seal despite that, but you don't want to press harder. The trumpet rim is smaller which could mean it seals over your teeth and is not as much effected by the curved front row. It is a guess. I'm not an expert on emboushure problems. I have only corrected one emboushure problem and that was my own. I did study trombone and brass teaching at the Royal Academy of music and after this worked as a brass teacher for 13 years, but since I started my students from scratch I could prevent a smile emboushure from the start.

Don't expect a quick fix if you decide to do the change. You need a teacher who has seen a lot of different emboushures. Doug might be the teacher at this forum who could point you in a direction, but it is you who need to do the hard work. As he said you need to push the corners forward instead to correct what we saw in that video. I do understand this is not something that work right away. You might need to accept that you can not play things at the level you are for a while, as you relearn. It might take half a year to harvest such a change and another to stabilise everything. That was about the time it took for me to come back as a better player.

/Tom
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by quiethorn » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:38 pm

mickael57280 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:51 am
I use a Yamaha 48, playing a large bore trombone, it's the smallest I can find.

I plan to make a living of it (gigs, teaching) so switching is not an option.
I have a Yamaha 47L that I'm selling in the classifieds. It's smaller than a 48. I'm not saying it will fix or help your problems (it won't), but just throwing it out there :biggrin:
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by BurckhardtS » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:16 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:02 pm
I do Skype lessons all the time. I can see exactly what you're doing and fix any issues.
I have been taking lessons with Doug about every 2-3 months for the last 3 years, only 1 of them having been in person, and I promise it's worth it. He charges a reasonable rate too. I would not be anywhere near the player I am now without me getting my chops together with his instruction.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doubler » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:04 pm

mickael57280 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:03 pm
Here is a video link
Q. Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

A. Rarely. I see some things that need to be worked on before you consider that the mouthpiece could be contributing to the problem.

First, puffing your cheeks prevents your facial muscles from developing; you're relying on the skin of your face to do all the work of containing the air and forming your embouchure. Instead you need to develop control of the muscles in your face so that the corners don't leak and so you can use the rest of your face to play more efficiently.

Which brings us to the second thing I think you need to work on. I see you chewing the various notes; you're contorting your chops into different configurations for each one. This once again is a symptom of lack of control of your embouchure, and I promise it will wear you out in a hurry besides giving you inconsistent results. Your goal should be to move from note to note and from octave to octave with minimal change to your face and lips. This will not happen overnight. To the contrary, it's a lifetime commitment.

I cannot see how you control your air, but I'm guessing that there is room for improvement there also. Proper air support will make playing easier.

YouTube can be your friend. Here's an example that applies to your situation: .
In addition, an even better thing for you to do would be to find a competent teacher. Even one lesson can point you in the right direction. Get as many lessons as you can manage. They don't need to be weekly; they can just be periodically to suit your time and financial situation. It's not an expenditure; it's an investment.

Good luck to you! Hope this helps.
Last edited by Doubler on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doubler » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:47 pm

Oh. Forgot to mention that mouthpiece pressure is probably a component in this situation, too. Starting a smile stretches the lips, making them thinner and more susceptible to injury. While forcing the trombone into your face will help increase range, it will only do so up to the point that the lips are immobilized, tone and control disappear, and/or lip damage occurs. Reducing mouthpiece pressure and keeping it at a minimum is something that all successful brass players spend their lives addressing. Keeping pressure light enables muscle development, embouchure strength, sensitivity, and accuracy. No one said that playing brass was easy.
Last edited by Doubler on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:39 pm

From seeing the OP's video, he's doing a whole lot of things that won't work.
The leakage is a symptom, not the problem.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by afugate » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:46 am

Doubler wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:04 pm
YouTube can be your friend. Here's an example that applies to your situation: .
It can also be your enemy, especially if you don't know what's right for YOU. I'm a rank amateur, but I am pretty certain by what I see in the OP's video that Lindberg's approach is not what is needed for this player's embouchure.
In addition, an even better thing for you to do would be to find a competent teacher. Even one lesson can point you in the right direction. Get as many lessons as you can manage. They don't need to be weekly; they can just be periodically to suit your time and financial situation. It's not an expenditure; it's an investment.

Good luck to you! Hope this helps.
This is it. :good:

But the challenge is that many very capable teachers of the trombone are not necessarily well-versed in the area of embouchure mechanics. And that is what the OP needs.

--Andy in OKC
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Hi, thank you all.

I'm study at a conservatory in France, my teacher has take lesson with Michel Becquet and had very good reputation as a teacher.

Yesterday at my weekly lesson we examinated the problem and he doesn't see anything wrong with my embouchure...
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:57 pm

Good luck with that teacher
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by timothy42b » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm

mickael57280 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:50 pm
Hi, thank you all.

I'm study at a conservatory in France, my teacher has take lesson with Michel Becquet and had very good reputation as a teacher.

Yesterday at my weekly lesson we examinated the problem and he doesn't see anything wrong with my embouchure...
Get a second opinion.

This is your future career at stake.

It's worth an hour of your life on Skype.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doubler » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:08 pm

I agree that not all information on YouTube is valid, and it is possible to be misled, but much of what is there is of value. Mr. Lindberg's advice qualifies as being helpful; it is an approach shared by players and teachers alike. Is it the only one? Of course not, but it represents the principles of good embouchure development quite well.

I also wholeheartedly agree with the skepticism expressed concerning mickael57280's current teacher, and I am heartened by the diplomacy used by the contributors in the above posts.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Posaunus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:17 pm

I believe that Mickael's issues / obstacles / problems are not only with embouchure but also with air (pressure and flow). Of course he could improve his embouchure, as most have noted, and perhaps change his mouthpiece - but his sound will only really improve when he properly supports the air flowing through his trombone (which Denson Paul Pollard appropriately calls a "gas guzzler" of an instrument!). Perhaps it's just his recording, but Mickael's sound reminds me of a vocalist singing from the throat instead of supporting from the diaphragm. Perhaps he should discuss this with his teacher, who seems to think his embouchure is O.K - or better yet, go find a good vocal coach at his conservatory to ask about breath support.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by baileyman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:48 pm

Watching Mickael and listening it sure seems familiar, like the way I used to play. Every note was tuned by muscular tension. Eventually that became painfully intolerable and I began chasing down minimal effort, high resonance notes, driven by tuning the mouth within ranges of muscular tension. The change is still in progress as things that need not be done continue to show up, and the not doing makes the remainder easier. I suggest it is possible to create a really great sound on a middle note with little more than a decent exhalation. A thousand such exhalations may be instructive.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:49 am

The video I made was with a practice mute because I have no space to play open at that time.

I can do an another one.

When I let go the air and concentrate on no tension, the sound become edgy and forced and my cheeks puff like crazy.
If I concentrate on no puffing my cheeks my sound is pinched and nasal.
I tried to pucker more but have no control.

Tell me what you want and I can make a video
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:31 am

mickael57280 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:49 am
The video I made was with a practice mute because I have no space to play open at that time.

I can do an another one.

When I let go the air and concentrate on no tension, the sound become edgy and forced and my cheeks puff like crazy.
If I concentrate on no puffing my cheeks my sound is pinched and nasal.
I tried to pucker more but have no control.

Tell me what you want and I can make a video
No tension is not the solution either. You need minimal and controlled tension.

You describe a situation that could have been me in that last post. In my teens I played upstream (looks like you do too) with air filled cheeks and a smile emboushure and also with big movements around the mouth corners that could be seen In a mirror. My high register was limited to :trebleclef: :line2: , and it was far from beautiful and the sound up there was unusable. To seal tight and to play high (In my high) register I had to press harder and, I used no breath support. The only thing good was I had a fairly good low register and could play down to contra Ab on my King 3b. I was fairly good at the valve, but naturally with puffed cheeks. At the time I had a Bach 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece.
I saw my friends play circles around me. They could play trombone concertos. They began to prepare for music collage studies. My confidence was near the bottom. Then I took up the issue with my new teacher and that became a turning point for me. This was about 39 years ago. After two years healing I was accepted at the Royal Academy of Music in Stockholm on trombone/education, I was also accepted at the Swedish Army Music Corps where I did my service for about 7 months as a trombone player on bass trombone. I do not think my playing could have taken me even that far if I had not found that teacher and did that change. Still 39 years after there are small reminders of where I come from that I have to deal with but my technique is now on track.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:07 am

mickael57280 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:49 am

When I let go the air and concentrate on no tension, the sound become edgy and forced and my cheeks puff like crazy.
If I concentrate on no puffing my cheeks my sound is pinched and nasal.
I tried to pucker more but have no control.
I have not been able to watch your video. That's kind of weird. On my lunch hour at work lots of stuff is blocked by our security, but even at home it didn't come up. When I get a chance I'll try on my Linux box.

Here's what I would suggest. Take a Skype lesson with Doug. If you don't like his advice don't take it. But you really need an exposure to someone who has a different approach from you, and who has recognized expertise in communicating it. Invest an hour in some online time. He knows this stuff and he gets results. I wish I'd gone to him years earlier, it would have avoided so much frustration and lost time.

It would be okay to do the opposite, too. Do a Skype lesson, or send a video, to someone like Sulliman who vehemently opposes any discussion of embouchure or mechanics. (I was going to say "it wouldn't hurt," but actually it could. Hmm.) Again if you don't like his advice don't take it. But don't try to mix the two. You'll go crazy bouncing back and forth between contradictory advice. Just do it for expanding your knowledge. If you're ever going to teach you need to know more than what works for one person.

I put one phrase in bold in your quote. That's because what you hear from behind the bell can be vastly different from what is coming out. My own recordings are sometimes much different from how I thought I played - sometimes better (midrange tone) and sometimes much worse (cleanness of articulation.) I hope that you are recording yourself on the best equipment you can find, and not depending on what you think you hear.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am

Doubler wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:08 pm
I agree that not all information on YouTube is valid, and it is possible to be misled, but much of what is there is of value. Mr. Lindberg's advice qualifies as being helpful; it is an approach shared by players and teachers alike.
I do not think that approach will work at all for this student.

It does not work for me, but I think for very different reasons. Yes it is a common approach but I think it is wrong.

It is not how Doug approached it with me, but of course his instruction is specific to the individual, so I couldn't say what he might tell the OP. But I found it interesting that Watrous's center note was almost exactly the same as what Doug told me.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Redthunder » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:48 am

Please:

GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:24 am

I think I will do.

It's very frustrating because on slow slurs I can play a high C and I'm happy of what I can do after 4 years but now I found that I hit a wall
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Pre59 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:31 am

Redthunder wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:48 am
Please:

GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
GET A LESSON WITH DOUG
mickael57280 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:24 am
I think I will do.
Good news! Don't "prevaricate" about the bush any more..
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am

Holly s*** if I pucker, no more air leak and no more puffing cheeks but it hurt my face muscle like I never played before.

And my ability drop at zero.
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:24 am

mickael57280 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am
Holly s*** if I pucker, no more air leak and no more puffing cheeks but it hurt my face muscle like I never played before.

And my ability drop at zero.
It does have that drawback when one go from a smile emboushure to a puckered emboushure. I had to quit all my ensambles for half a year :-) Still you need a real professional player and experienced teacher when you do a change like this. There are a lot of things that will come up as questions on the way. You need the teacher to point you in the right direction and for support. To me the change was hard to do even mentally, with doubts and bad confidence. You need to stay focused and believe to get this right. To play with a smile or with a pucker is very different. Today I can not play with the smile emboushure I had in my youth. It has been 39 years and I tried to play upstream with a smile emboushure yesterday and puffed cheeks. I do remember what I looked like but now it is impossible The only sound I get is a "wounded moose sound" and the register is about as high as a middle f. In this case - before you do this on your own - get a second opinion from another teacher. It might cost some but if you do this change you better do it right. Get a real good experienced one!

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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Doubler
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doubler » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:32 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am

I do not think that approach will work at all for this student.
We may continue to disagree on this matter. No hard feelings. :)
Current instruments:
Olds Studio trombone, 3 trumpets, 1 flugelhorn, 1 cornet, 1 shofar, 1 keyboard

Previous trombones:
Selmer Bundy, Marceau
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:33 am

mickael57280 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am
Holly s*** if I pucker, no more air leak and no more puffing cheeks but it hurt my face muscle like I never played before.

And my ability drop at zero.
Let me tell a story.

Some years ago - well, must have been late 70s- I was playing in a community band I liked a lot in FondduLac WI. I didn't have a regular routine and living in a small apartment didn't practice much. I had problems with endurance as you would expect, even though back then I was never on first.

So I tried playing the flexibility section out of the Arban book, without any lessons of course. Weird thing, a totally different set of muscles got tired playing those than got tired playing in a concert. Obviously these were not help with the problem. I was smart enough to figure that out.

I didn't draw the (now) obvious conclusion: because I was doing them wrong. And/or playing with the band wrong. I was halfway to the answer, never got there.

My point is you can't possibly know if your face muscle hurt because you worked it correctly or because you did it wrong.

I have since verified there is no known exercise I can't play incorrectly.
Doug Elliott
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doug Elliott » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:37 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:33 am
I have since verified there is no known exercise I can't play incorrectly.
You should stop being so many negatives.
timothy42b
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 am

Doubler wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:32 am
timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am

I do not think that approach will work at all for this student.
We may continue to disagree on this matter. No hard feelings. :)
Oh, of course. And I think it does work for some people, I just think the odds aren't great.

I think his idea is to start on a note that is comfortable and does not require strain, and extend those good habits in both directions. It worked for him, why wouldn't it work for us lesser mortals?

But. The lower the note you start on, the more ways to play it without much effort, and all of them but one are wrong. I start an octave up from that note every morning, and if I do it wrong I can't do it relaxed and comfortable. Watrous says he starts on that G for the same reasons.

At least, that's how I understand it. I don't claim any expertise but I have no shortage of opinions. :good:
imsevimse
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by imsevimse » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:19 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:37 am
timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:33 am
I have since verified there is no known exercise I can't play incorrectly.
You should stop being so many negatives.
:good:

Well, I read through all MY posts in this thread and I think I have no more comments. If you have read them all you will se I have not given any advice at all what exactly to do. I have only used myself and my journey as a reference and resource. If you do need a change - and I do think you do - then I for one know what you are going through because I have been there.

What I would advice against is to do a change only based on the information in this thread. I think you did right to put your video out for public criticism because you've got a second opinion. If you have a teacher who has not adressed this then let this be an eyeopener. If your teacher can not see you have a problem then you need to get another teacher. You do have insight. You know you have a problem or else you wouldn't have posted here. That's great. Good luck, and remember your problems can be corrected.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
afugate
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by afugate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:57 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:07 am

I have not been able to watch your video. That's kind of weird. On my lunch hour at work lots of stuff is blocked by our security, but even at home it didn't come up. When I get a chance I'll try on my Linux box.
I had this problem as well and discovered it doesn't play under https, which is how I (we) access the trombone forums these days. So, I grabbed the link and removed the "s". Works fine without it.

Here's the URL for reference. (I tried adding it using the media button, but that converts it back to https)

Code: Select all

http://streamable.com/6wxsk
--Andy in OKC
mickael57280
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:27 pm

Here is another video

Last edited by mickael57280 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doubler
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by Doubler » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:15 pm

I am unable to see your video in Chrome nor Fireox.
Current instruments:
Olds Studio trombone, 3 trumpets, 1 flugelhorn, 1 cornet, 1 shofar, 1 keyboard

Previous trombones:
Selmer Bundy, Marceau
mickael57280
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Re: Can a teeth/jaw structure be incompatible with trombone mouthpiece?

Post by mickael57280 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 pm

It's solved, I uploaded the video on another hosting platform.
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