TromboneChat

I started to change my approach to playing over 10 years ago, and I've noticed that over this period I no longer wet my lips prior to playing. While I used to use about 5 tubes of Chapstick (and/or Burt's Bees & petrolatum jelly) per year, now I use about 1/2 tube per year.

Other factors might be age or diet, but I would rule these out and simply put it to changes in my embouchure. I use a lot more lip compression now, and this negates the need wet my chops.

Has anyone had a similar experience?

I do.

Wet? Yup

Always

What are the advantages/disadvantages of each, wet lips vs. dry?

Wet lips - dry horn

Always tell my students this when they go for an audition or perform a solo.

Can't stand to hearing gurgling almost immediately after an audition or solo begins.

No
Chris

Bill Watrous in an interview said that an advantage of playing with wet lips is that when playing in a hot environment, or under pressure, when the lips would naturally be moist, is that you're still playing in the usual way. Unlike a dry embouchure player, who has to keep the lips dry under those difficult conditions.

cigmar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:22 pm What are the advantages/disadvantages of each, wet lips vs. dry?

This is a good discussion point.

I should clarify that I do not moisten my lips prior to playing, but I don't try to keep them dry. My lips get wet, and sometimes really wet, while playing. I do occasionally wipe them off. My puddle under my water key is the biggest in the section whether I'm on lead or bass, and most of that would be condensation from the amount of air I blow.

In my old style of playing, I would rely on wet lips to create an even embouchure and a good buzz. It was a requirement to play. For the first years of married life, I often licked my lips before going to kiss my wife, and she would tell me that she was not a trombone!

Now, I rely on lip compression for my embouchure. When warming up, I work on having enough compression to play. I also concentrate first on getting a good centred note. I have a lot more control, and I wonder if my choice to play dry is a side effect of trying to gain more embouchure control

It is good to see that some others can also play dry. Winter time in Toronto is cold and snowy, so some lip balm is needed.

torobone wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:23 pm

cigmar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:22 pm What are the advantages/disadvantages of each, wet lips vs. dry?

This is a good discussion point.

That is what I had hoped, to initiate an expanded discussion on this.

I don't lick my lips each time I play but I also don't continually wipe them with a cloth or whatever to keep them dry. I guess I just allow them to be in a natural state, for lack of a better description. So, would I then be considered a wet lip or a dry lip player?

I'm trying to state my experiences on this topic clearly, to see if there is anything to my observation.

I find if I wet my lips before I play, I can always make a sound. It is easier to play, but in my old days (for 40 years) of playing, it masked other issues that I had with a less focused and less controlled sound.There were no complaints about my sound, but it is so much better now.

By starting dry, I have to do things properly, at least to the way I now play. It forces me to use more lip compression, and to do things in a far more controlled fashion. After I centre my notes, I play with a lot more focus to my sound. The focus allows me to blend better with other members of the ensemble.

Yes. If you play for any length of time, they will eventually end up wet either way. This way things are more consistent.

I also have better flexibility wet than dry, and particularly lower range is better. Interesting that Chris Stearn said he doesn't play wet, but certainly will have an excellent low register!

Joe plays wet.

When younger and less developed in my embouchure I depended on my lips being really dry as means of support against the rim of the mouthpiece ... but that is unreliable in high pressure or hot conditions so I have transitioned over the years to a set-up that's largely unaffected by moisture. Sloppy wetness is not my preference and can have a marginally deleterious effect on my endurance, but I no longer need to dry my chops to have any hope of an upper register consistency.

Is the compression some of you talking about different from the compression that I've always heard was a very bad thing??

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:26 pm Yes. If you play for any length of time, they will eventually end up wet either way. This way things are more consistent.

I also have better flexibility wet than dry, and particularly lower range is better. Interesting that Chris Stearn said he doesn't play wet, but certainly will have an excellent low register!

Ah ! You just made an assumption! I hope my low register is okay... and my mid and upper register for that matter... that is for others to judge though.
What is an important factor is that I do not need to move the mouthpiece over the lips to move from one register to another. No 'shifts'. Therefore I don't need a slippery interface between lips and mouthpiece.
I also use no more pressure than is needed for a given note.
I don't need this wet thing, so I don't use it.
Simple.

Chris

Playing wet is really not at all about a "slippery interface between lips and mouthpiece." That can be a disaster.
It's about creating a consistent formation and placement, and not one that relies on friction as a truly dry embouchure does.

No matter how little pressure you use, a "groove" forms in your lip tissue where the mouthpiece sits. In a lot of players it ca be seen and felt even when not playing. Assuming it's located in a good and favorable placement for the individual (sometimes it's not), a wet or at least damp surface will allow the mouthpiece to locate itself in that groove quickly.

As a kid, I played dry. Then I read Denis Wick’s Trombone Technique (which is, sadly, out of print), where he recommended playing wet for a few reasons. One of them I remember is where he noted that wiping the mouth and mouthpiece with a cloth would be to a conductor like a red cape is to a bull. (Of course, there’s the old joke about the difference between a bull and an orchestra...) At any rate, I’ve played with moist lips since I read Wick.

I was taught by Denis Wick. Wet or dry never came up in a lesson.
Chris.

blast wrote: ↑Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:55 am I was taught by Denis Wick.

Was that before or after he published his book?

I think it was in one of the first chapters, Basic Procedures maybe? I’d have to go find my copy.

I think that I've still got a copy, and the
Bill Watrous remark may in the Trombonisms book which I'll check after Christmas.

Ken, it was around the same time. I had no big face issues so it never came up... lots of time spent on slide movement through and bigging up the sound. I personally think that some of the stuff in the book was about writing what he thought he should write. Overall a great little book though with some very practical advice and real truths. He was a great player, no doubt and a very forceful personality who had a deep impact on several generations that followed.

Chris

blast wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:00 pm

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:26 pm Yes. If you play for any length of time, they will eventually end up wet either way. This way things are more consistent.

I also have better flexibility wet than dry, and particularly lower range is better. Interesting that Chris Stearn said he doesn't play wet, but certainly will have an excellent low register!

Ah ! You just made an assumption! I hope my low register is okay... and my mid and upper register for that matter... that is for others to judge though.
What is an important factor is that I do not need to move the mouthpiece over the lips to move from one register to another. No 'shifts'. Therefore I don't need a slippery interface between lips and mouthpiece.
I also use no more pressure than is needed for a given note.
I don't need this wet thing, so I don't use it.
Simple.

Chris

True. I did make an assumption (sort of - I know for a fact you have a great low register, like everyone else here knows, too).

The reason my low range is better wet is because my lips aren't all that supple (I don't think so, anyway), and are very tight when dry. I setup to play with a lot of compression, so I need as much help in the low range as possible, even as primarily a bass trombonist.

I find that I'm even stiffer and tighter when I'm dried out. Doesn't work for me.

Let me be really clear .... the lips themselves will ALWAYS be moist... that is necessary for vibration to occur. I am talking about wetting the mouthpiece rim.

Chris

I never went the rim.

Also bear in mind that the skin becomes dryer and that the lips thin with age. Having a moist embouchure helps me to find the "slot" immediately, which is the only setting for my entire range.
And I HAVE played in environments where the sweat has been running down my face at only 10 in the morning, with another 3 shows to go. Happy days...

blast wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:46 am Let me be really clear .... the lips themselves will ALWAYS be moist... that is necessary for vibration to occur. I am talking about wetting the mouthpiece rim.

Chris

Ah! Thanks for the clarification! I do this, too.

Out curiosity, Chris, do you have students that play “dry,” that is, ones who dry their lips before placing them on the mouthpiece? If so, do you say anything to them? What?

Are we talking here about wetting the lips or wetting the mouthpiece rim? To me, they're two different things.

In winter I get up at night
And lick my lips before I play.
In summer, quite the other way.
They're fine and all I do is play.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:04 am

blast wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:46 am Let me be really clear .... the lips themselves will ALWAYS be moist... that is necessary for vibration to occur. I am talking about wetting the mouthpiece rim.

Chris

Ah! Thanks for the clarification! I do this, too.

Out curiosity, Chris, do you have students that play “dry,” that is, ones who dry their lips before placing them on the mouthpiece? If so, do you say anything to them? What?

I don't know of anyone who tries to dry their lips before they play (I never knew 'Satchmo'). Which students play with a dry rim, which ones wet the rim ? It never comes up. If concepts are good and results improving where is the issue ? Since every player is unique none of them will ever fit perfectly into a pre- planned box. I teach the individual, so everyone has a unique experience.... including me !

Chris

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:29 am In winter I get up at night
And lick my lips before I play.
In summer, quite the other way.
They're fine and all I do is play.

Nice try, wrong format.

(This list is restricted to limericks and haiku.)

blast wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm ...

I don't know of anyone who tries to dry their lips before they play (I never knew 'Satchmo'). ...

Chris

sabutin does, carries a towel for the purpose.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:01 am

blast wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 pm ...

I don't know of anyone who tries to dry their lips before they play (I never knew 'Satchmo'). ...

Chris

sabutin does, carries a towel for the purpose.

Really? With multiple breaks I am surprised. Shame he is nnot here to chip in.

Chris

Talking of Denis Wicks book. Somewhere in there is advice (tongue in cheek I am sure) that amounts to (paraphrase with additional liberties) dont kiss your girl friend passionately before a performance! When I was about 19 and just going out with (my now wife) girlfriend I mentioned this before a performance and didnt kiss her. Shes still married to me but I have never ever been allowed to forget it and weve been married 40 years! She sat next to Dennis at a barbeque in New Orleans a few years back... and yes he had to justify himself, which is why I say at the beginning it was tongue in cheek when he wrote it.... Well thats about as far off subject as you can get, sorry about that (accept as I recall the lips were moist when kissing her and it didnt effect the embouchure in later years!!)... or maybe it backs up Chris's statement that Dennis might have written what he thought he was expected to write?... Doug

As the original poster, let me clarify a couple of things about my intent.

There are 2 separate things that are of great interest to me right now. One is finding reliable ways to simplify my playing and how to communicate what I learn to others. Secondly, as an aging player, I also want to develop techniques that prolong my ability to play at a high enthusiast's level. I have played with some 50-somethings that should have stopped years ago; on the other end, I play with some 80+ guys who still play at a very high level. Some folks just know how to do it, while others have never figured it out. There are many people between these two extremes, and many factors for each of us.

I'm getting a list of a number of techniques, most of them pedagogical, that can quickly sort things for me and perhaps many people. Being able to play when you start dry is one of the things I'm wondering about.

On this topic, I moistened my lips for 40 years in order to set my chops for a consistent buzz. Many posters seem to support this idea. About 10 years ago, I started to approach my embouchure differently, and my results are pleasing to me and the people I play with. One of the new ideas led to being able to start with dry lips to make sure things are set correctly.

So, my questions to those interested are: 1) can you start with dry lips, and 2) what changes do you have to make if you are able to start dry?

I just tried.

I've played wet for as long as I can remember, based on Farkas's book. I've just had a 3 week layoff, too, being extra careful after cataract surgery.

I played about half an hour this morning about 0700. Just now (3:30 PM Eastern time) I dried my lips on a towel and picked up the horn. Just before it got there my tongue popped out on its own and wet my lips. I found it very difficult to actually try, but putting the horn on carefully I played a bit of Sentimental and Bolero dry. I cracked the whole first measure then after that it was okay. Then I repeated it very wet. That was easier, notes spoke better and smoother. But the difference was not large. I think I could play either way. Dry is uncomfortable mentally but I'm not sure it was that different physically.

1a. By “dry” I’m assuming you mean not wetting the mouthpiece and drying the lips with a towel or your hand. No, I can’t do that. As I mentioned above, I used to play that way as a kid, but the past 40 years I’ve played wet.

(As an aside, after reading Wick, and once I realized that condensation and saliva work their way into the mouthpiece and around the lips and between the lips and the mouthpiece, I thought, “What’s the point in trying to keep them dry?” Imagine a scenario where you’re in the middle of a stand-up solo, or perhaps a solo passage, and you find your lips are too wet for comfort. What will you do? The music can’t stop, and if you haven’t the time to wipe the lips and mouthpiece during rests, you’ll be very uncomfortable embouchure-wise until you do so.)

1b. If by “dry” you meaning only licking the lips and not wetting the mouthpiece, that’s pretty much what I currently do. Sometimes I find myself licking the rim along where the rim rests on my bottom lip, but it’s very quick and mainly habit, like timothy42b.

2) I just spent a few minutes during a practice session attempting to play dry as in 1a. I found I could only do it if I was VERY mindful about placement and put the mouthpiece in pretty darn EXACTLY the right spot.

The biggest disadvantage I see to a dry embouchure 1a. is that my embouchure doesn’t work that way. I find that my mouthpiece tends to “track” up and down a little depending on the register. (This is something I learned from Doug Elliott, and that I’m still working on.) It just works better, it seems to improve my playing in the various registers, and—once I got the hang of it—it’s easy.

Thanks for your feedback. From this thread, I haven't reached a conclusion, but the discussion was interesting.

These days, I just pick up the horn and blow. Things get moist quickly, but I use lip compression for my initial approach to a buzz. I also use a lot less pressure on my face; I rarely if ever get a red ring on my face after playing, even for 2 hours.

Somehow I didn't get around to contributing while the thread was still alive, so here are my belated thoughts (and a question).

I play with wet lips (not just moist, really wet), so I lick both my lips and the mouthpiece (often). I don't do this because it makes shifting easier - I try not to shift at all. But I think I get a better seal this way, and the mouthpiece finds its natural placement more easily, or something. Anyway, I don't like the sensation of a dry rim that feels like it couldn't shift, even if I don't actually shift.

At some point in the past I tried to switch to playing dry. For no particular reason, I just wanted to try if it works. I tried for three or four weeks, and couldn't get used to it, so I switched back to wet, and it was a relief.

Sometimes, especially now in winter when it's cold and dry, I get sore lips, and I have the feeling that this might be caused by licking them so often during playing. It seems that this happens more often after orchestra rehearsals where there's not much to play; it happens less often after practice sessions or big band rehearsals where I play all the time. Any thoughts on this?

Also, when my lips get sore this way, my lexan rim feels too sticky to me, and I have the feeling that I can't lick it enough to make it as slippery as I want it. This makes me wonder if I should try a silver or even a gold plated rim instead, as much as I like the lexan rim.

When I was young, I played with dry lips and relied on the mouthpiece for support. As I developed (and developed confidence), I wet my lips because proper support comes primarily from the embouchure, not the mouthpiece. It feels more comfortable, and enables a little more lip movement (not up and down; just the change among registers). Whether it actually does or not, I perceive that wetting the lips helps to create a better seal, which seems to work with less mouthpiece pressure. Works for me. YMMV.

Doubler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:50 pm When I was young, I played with dry lips and relied on the mouthpiece for support. As I developed (and developed confidence), I wet my lips because proper support comes primarily from the embouchure, not the mouthpiece. It feels more comfortable, and enables a little more lip movement (not up and down; just the change among registers). Whether it actually does or not, I perceive that wetting the lips helps to create a better seal, which seems to work with less mouthpiece pressure. Works for me. YMMV.

That's really interesting. Freebuzz can't use the mouthpiece support, and I can freebuzz all but the highest notes on my horn. Yet if there is the slightest moisture between lip and piece I will pull it off and dry it. I don't know what this means. It's just an interesting difference.

I've never been able to closely correlate freebuzzing to actual playing. Freebuzz is a different process than mouthpiece buzzing, which is again different than including the column of air in the wind instrument. I focus on the interaction of player and horn, the unit, beginning with the bottom of the lungs to beyond the bell. For others, freebuzz is as much the foundation of their playing, as is mouthpiece buzzing to others. My attitude and approach is that since the ultimate goal is to play the instrument, why not just do that?

I suppose that there is a difference in the interaction between wet and dry lips with the mouthpiece, and that interaction works differently for different players. I don't get the results I want with a dry connection; others do.

Agreed. I hardly ever freebuzz. But if I want to, I can, and move it on and off the horn at will. So it's interesting to want the chops dry, since it does not seem they need to be. Like I said, it's just interesting. One of these days an idea about this will show up.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:04 am Agreed. I hardly ever freebuzz. But if I want to, I can, and move it on and off the horn at will. So it's interesting to want the chops dry, since it does not seem they need to be. Like I said, it's just interesting. One of these days an idea about this will show up.

I freebuzz in the car on the way to work... that's basically my warmup. Like you,I can take the mouthpiece off whilst playing and return it with no issue. My free buzz is the same as playing the trombone. I don't wet the rim.... one less thing to do. Many people say that they cannot free buzz in the same way as they play the horn. I am sure that is correct for them. I hope they allow me to assert a difference for my own playing.

Chris

It's -8 C (18 F) here right now. The humidity is down inside as well. I used to regularly lick my lips throughout the day, and apply a lot of lip balm particularly in the winter. I used to moisten my lips before playing.

I stopped it. I don't try to stay dry (Jeeves, I don't need that towel, thank you!) Sometimes I wipe my lips on the back of my hand while playing of things are too wet, but I don't really care.

My lip balm consumption is down from about 6 tubes to 1/2 tube per year.

I do

Reading this thread I am very astonished: Never in my whole life of playing the trombone I saw anyone actually sticking out his tongue and licking along the rim of the mouthpiece. Really never in thirty years.

Since I have a somewhat moist embouchure - up to the point, that in summer the condensation even comes out of the bell of my bass - I dry the mouthpiece during long rests if it's necessary, while I hold it in my hand for nodobody in the audience to see.

But neither I nor anyone I ever played with showed the habit of licking his mouthpiece. Was that mere coincidence? Would it be inappropriate to burst in laughter seeing someone french kissing his trombone?