Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Posaunus
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Posaunus » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:01 pm

To be clear, my "points" - if any - were:

• A single-valve bass trombone does not sound appreciably different (or "smaller") relative to a double-valve bass of the same make, bore size, etc. It just looks smaller. That appearance should not be used as a point of prejudice or belittlement. For repertoire which does not require (or make advantageous) a second valve, there is (or should be) no difference musically between the two.

• Sometimes a full-sized modern bass trombone (with one or two valves) is a mismatch to the classical (and related) repertoire. I know many players now play everything with large equipment. I just happen to believe that for those works it can sound better with smaller instruments in the trombone section. Apparently, many of the players (and conductors) of several major symphony orchestras agree with me, since I see them "going small" for Mozart, Beethoven, etc. I did not intend to insult GBP or his playing; just trying to state my personal preference. Please accept my apologies, GBP. Play what works for you.

Finally, I am the first to admit that for some repertoire (especially modern big band or solo literature), having a second valve is greatly preferable - even mandatory. For those situations, I am clearly handicapped with only one valve on my bass trombone. But I am of an age where carrying the extra weight of a two-valve bass trombone is just too much for me to consider (not to mention the expense of yet another trombone). So I play (and enjoy) only the repertoire where one valve is enough.
imsevimse
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by imsevimse » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Tonight was the second time I brought the single valve bass to a big band gig. I think I will continue to do so, I've got so much positive feedback now on the single that I can not find any good excuse to go back to a double. This horn just sings. The lead trombone player gave me much credit for my sound. He thought it to be fat and solid, and said it gave good support to the section sound, a good bottom to build from.

It is not just that I received postive feedback that make me rethink. It is much more fun to play this horn. In this band the C's and B's wasn't much of a problem. Either I pulled the tuning slide to e or I played them as fake notes.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
Bach5G
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Bach5G » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:51 pm

“This horn just sings.”

There you go.
User avatar
Fafner
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Fafner » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:10 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:25 pm
GBP wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:21 am
I have an Edwards 427 single bass. I use it when play the Mozart Requiem, Beethoven 9 and similar music where a less heavy sound is needed. I don’t play it often, sticking with doubles for most of the playing I do.
Good grief. A full-size bass trombone (yes, even single-valve bass trombones are typically the same size as double-valve basses) for Mozart (or even Beethoven)? This seems to me to be overkill. In some circles, even blasphemy! These composers couldn't have even imagined these monster instruments - or their huge sound. Time to lighten up, methinks!
Gerry Pagano of the St Louis Symphony has a small Edwards setup he uses:

The "smallness" of this horn doesn't really come from one valve... it's a smaller bell, single bore slide, tight leadpipe, rose brass, etc... As others have pointed out, making a small bass trombone requires a lot of adjustment beyond just the number valves.

There is a narrow band of repertoire that benefits from downsizing to a small bass. I would almost never recommend a student or amateur do it. Work on making nice sounds with your main ax. IMO If your main ax isn't flexible enough to play that literature, your equipment is probably too big.... downsize.

As to what composers imagined as a trombone sound, I think it's best not to go too far down the rabbithole and if you do, start a new thread. All I have to say about that is If you want to buy something approaching a Romantic era bass trombone, just go buy a Bach 42.

As to the OP, you could look into the boutique Edward that Pagano is playing in that video or buy an old Conn 70H or 72H. I don't recommend the 70H if weight is a concern because it's very front heavy.
blast
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by blast » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:57 am

Looking from the other side....a few years back I remember we downsized for an early opera... me using my 1927 Conn 14H, which has 8 1/2" bell,.547 slide and was called a medium bass by Conn at the time.... after a couple of days, we asked the trumpets, who sit in front of us, what they thought to our 'period' sound..... they hadn't noticed that anything was different !
I have a 9" bell Rath single..... it has that unique 9" sound.....

Chris
Schlitz
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Schlitz » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:09 am

blast wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:04 pm
Today I was helping out at school concert and found that I was having to cover 1st and 2nd trombone parts on the bass....at one point I turned to the kid next to me and said that I wished that I had brought a tenor with me.... she said 'oh, is that a bass ? '.....
Actually, looking at the above,perhaps I just make small sound.....

Chris
I see what you did there....
Schlitz
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Schlitz » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:13 am

On that other forum, if I remember it correctly, one member just took one horn to the rehearsals. He had a spare single valve section, and configured it as needed. It’s nice to have options.
blast
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by blast » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:38 am

Schlitz wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:09 am
blast wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:04 pm
Today I was helping out at school concert and found that I was having to cover 1st and 2nd trombone parts on the bass....at one point I turned to the kid next to me and said that I wished that I had brought a tenor with me.... she said 'oh, is that a bass ? '.....
Actually, looking at the above,perhaps I just make small sound.....

Chris
I see what you did there....
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
GBP
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:08 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by GBP » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:53 am

Posaunus wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:01 pm
To be clear, my "points" - if any - were:

• A single-valve bass trombone does not sound appreciably different (or "smaller") relative to a double-valve bass of the same make, bore size, etc. It just looks smaller. That appearance should not be used as a point of prejudice or belittlement. For repertoire which does not require (or make advantageous) a second valve, there is (or should be) no difference musically between the two.

• Sometimes a full-sized modern bass trombone (with one or two valves) is a mismatch to the classical (and related) repertoire. I know many players now play everything with large equipment. I just happen to believe that for those works it can sound better with smaller instruments in the trombone section. Apparently, many of the players (and conductors) of several major symphony orchestras agree with me, since I see them "going small" for Mozart, Beethoven, etc. I did not intend to insult GBP or his playing; just trying to state my personal preference. Please accept my apologies, GBP. Play what works for you.
You are making the assumption that my 427 is a “large” horn. I downsized the slide, bell, leadpipe and mouthpiece. This subject has come up before and on one of those threads a very wise bass trombonist said for for music that requires a smaller sound he would play smaller. Light bulb moment. I now work on playing smaller, focused compact playing. The equipment we choose is important to a point. We as players have the ability
make adjustments to how we play that has a much larger impact then the horn we play on. I have heard players sound huge on small equipment and sound small on large equipment. It is not just about the horn.
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Matt K » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Too add fuel to the fire, I've been using an Edwards 562 slide on my dependent tenor section (Shires 2VET7 tenor bell, YS tuning slide, Bach 36/42 rotors, closed wrap) for the last few months while I have a custom bass being built. Bandleaders thought it sounded great, didn't notice a difference.

I think its more about what is easier for you. In my case, I have to struggle to get some of the lower pedals out on it but it being a tenor bell section makes any of the parts that are "Trombone 4" parts but not necessarily a "Bass Trombone" part a piece of cake.

E.g. we played some pretty progressive charts in one of the bands. One of them asked for Pedal F -> Gb -> F -> Gb etc. etc. in whole notes (at a fairly brisk tempo) at a "crunchy" dynamic. Not a big deal on really any bass that I've played but with the tenor bell section, even with my normal 114/L/L8 it was not nearly as easy on this smaller bell section. Several of the charts ask for you to basically live down there. Copious Cs, Bs etc. Additionally, I have a Duo Gravis linkage on mine and I like it for most stuff but it was a real chore on that setup both ergonomically and range wise.

But the tradeoff is that of course the dexterity in the high range is superb. Of course, some of those parts go up to high D in the 4th part. Not as fun on a 'real' bass but on the tenor that comes out strong - no problem. In an ideal setting, I'd probably have two horns and use the smaller of the two for those types of charts. Of course, in an ideal world, all music would be idiomatic to the trombone so I guess we're not quite there yet :wink:
User avatar
ghmerrill
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:41 pm
Location: Central North Carolina

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by ghmerrill » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:15 am

DougHulme wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 pm
... well I think my problem is not small sound but small mind! Its too much trouble to work out all these alternative positions and I find everything on a single comes second nature to me from learning in my youth.
I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
thatme
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by thatme » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:14 am

ghmerrill wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:15 am
DougHulme wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:47 pm
... well I think my problem is not small sound but small mind! Its too much trouble to work out all these alternative positions and I find everything on a single comes second nature to me from learning in my youth.
I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.

As a bass doubler (from tuba) I also feel like I use the valves on my double bass A LOT more than other players. It’s really helpful to me to have two valves.
Bach5G
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Bach5G » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:02 am

Is the 421 the same instrument as the 620G but with a single trigger?
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by JohnL » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:20 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:02 am
Is the 421 the same instrument as the 620G but with a single trigger?
It's quite likely that they are very close dimensionally, but there are differences in materials. The 620G has nickel silver outers while the 421G's are yellow brass. There are some other parts (cork barrels, for instance) that are nickel on the 620G and brass on the 421G.

Referring back to the original topic: If I were going to have a single as my only bass trombone, I would probably not choose a Yamaha. I'd want something with a workable E pull.
GBP
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:08 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by GBP » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm

I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.
RConrad
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by RConrad » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:01 pm

ghmerrill wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:15 am

I think the "from learning in my youth" is often the primary factor here. I never learned on a tenor trombone, and acquired one only long after I picked up a bass (on which I'm self taught, as with the tuba and euph). So I never had the investment in, or habits of, playing all those "second nature" positions.

I LOVE my Gb valve particularly, and if I did ever have a single-valve horn would probably convert the valve to Gb rather than F. I virtually NEVER use 6th or 7th position, and this is great because my arthritic shoulder tends to suffer when I do. I sit in line with three very competent tenor players and am always amused/puzzled by seeing them saw back and forth between 6th/7th and the higher positions. But the force of habit is a strong thing.
It's part habit and part muscle memory I think. Since getting back to playing I've had to put some work into remembering to use my valves. When I was younger all I had was a small bore straight tenor so sometimes when I was getting back into the swing of things I'd jump from 1st to 6th or 7th without thinking about it. Had to put a stop to that as I'm short and not as young as I used to be. After reading around a bit here and finding some technique books I've just focused on being strategic and moving the slide the least I need to.

Also after reading your review of your bass I'm kinda tempted to try an instrument from Schiller.
Posaunus
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Posaunus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:30 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:20 pm
Bach5G wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:02 am
Referring back to the original topic: If I were going to have a single as my only bass trombone, I would probably not choose a Yamaha. I'd want something with a workable E pull.
John,
I totally agree with you on this one. An E pull would be very beneficial.

I only have the Yamaha 421G because I stumbled on it on eBay at a time a few years ago when I was looking for a bass trombone, submitted a lowball bid of $900 (apparently the only bid - perhaps because nobody else wanted a single-valve bass trombone!), and - to my surprise - won the auction! I was delighted when it arrived to find it in pristine, nearly unplayed condition. Other than the lack of an E pull, it's been a wonderful trombone for this doubler's needs. [But I do occasionally get those sideways glances from real (two-valve) bass trombonists!]
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by JohnL » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:01 pm

GBP wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm
I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.
Funny thing is, there's not much 88H left on that configuration. Different slide, different bell (all the way back through the tuning slide).
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Matt K » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:01 pm
GBP wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:31 pm
I have always wanted to try that Conn 88h tenor with the 9 inch bell and bass slide.
Funny thing is, there's not much 88H left on that configuration. Different slide, different bell (all the way back through the tuning slide).
Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?
User avatar
ghmerrill
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:41 pm
Location: Central North Carolina

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by ghmerrill » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:42 pm

RConrad wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:01 pm
Also after reading your review of your bass I'm kinda tempted to try an instrument from Schiller.
Just go into a Shiller deal with your eyes open and don't have expectations that are unreasonable relative to price. One reason I went in that direction (after considering whether I wanted to try to spend more for either a "better Chinese" instrument or for a decent used horn of American/Japanese/etc. manufacture) was that I knew I really had no idea what I wanted in a bass trombone. I'd had a Holton TR181 twenty years earlier, but played it little, found it to be great in terms of quality and tone, but very bell heavy and cumbersome to hold and play.

So I KNEW that I'd want to experiment with whatever I got and didn't want to be intimidated with messing up either a fairly expensive or classic horn. The only work done on it that I didn't do myself was to pull the lead pipe -- and even that was a joint effort by me and the tech I go to. After some experimentation, I ended up with the Brass Ark lead pipe (MV50R) I've got in it, I modified the 2nd valve lever (including soldering on a 5 centime French coin as the "paddle"), removed the finger ring under the receiver and replaced it with a finger hook (really intended for a French horn) soldered to the front of the handslide support (instead of the rear where the ring was). I would have been reluctant to do that with a better/more expensive/classic horn. But for a < $600 horn? No problem. I also added a bullet brace.

After months of experimentation and trying to get to the point where playing the thing wasn't actually painful, the result was a horn that sits perfectly in my hand with neutral balance and is a pleasure to play. Every once in a while I think about replacing it with something a little better, but know I'd have to do similar modifications to a new horn and think that I'll just keep on with this one and live with the limitations of the valves (which from what I can tell are pretty much the limitations of the valves in the original King 7B).

I like it, and with a 112 rim on my DE LB mouthpiece can get very good access to the full pedal register and double valve stuff. But I find it's more comfortable to play with my 110 rim since in community band I end up playing a lot of pretty high 3rd parts or 2nd parts. And it's sure not a "symphonic bass trombone". But it absolutely kicks butt on pieces like "Pirates of the Caribbean". 8-)

mods.jpg
mods.jpg (854.02 KiB) Viewed 427 times
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by JohnL » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:49 pm

Matt K wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm
Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?
I think it's actually unique to the HKO. It has to mate with the King Symphony bell tail on one end and the 88H neckpipe on the other.
RConrad
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by RConrad » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:46 pm

ghmerrill wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:42 pm
snip
Oh if I get a Schiller I'm expecting to have to put a bit of work into it. I'd also be using it for Pep band so I don't want anything super nice. Looking at more compact instruments like a flugabone or marching baritone or even a bass trumpet. Basically something that could cover second trombone on pop/rock/marching pieces since, for some reason, the other trombones mostly play first...

Anyhow on topic I think the only thing I'd worry about with a single bass is making sure I could adjust the tuning. I wouldn't call the music I play in my band very intensive as we're a group made up of mostly by non-music majors but I've still had to play several low Cs so it'd take a bit of work to get those false tones down.
Last edited by RConrad on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Matt K » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:17 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:49 pm
Matt K wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:50 pm
Really? What tuning slide? Is it the same as the King 5B maybe?
I think it's actually unique to the HKO. It has to mate with the King Symphony bell tail on one end and the 88H neckpipe on the other.
Very interesting! I would have expected it to be similar to the 5B or basically be a tenor with a 'normal' tenor tuning slide sort of like how Shires or Edwards will make a 9" bell for tenor or bass but they don't necessarily make anything that is tenor on the valve side but bass on the bell side.
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by JohnL » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:45 pm

Matt K wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:17 pm
Very interesting! I would have expected it to be similar to the 5B or basically be a tenor with a 'normal' tenor tuning slide sort of like how Shires or Edwards will make a 9" bell for tenor or bass but they don't necessarily make anything that is tenor on the valve side but bass on the bell side.
The origins of that bell go back to the King Symphony models of the 1930's; it's not really a tenor bell or a bass bell by modern standards, but something in between - not just in flare diameter, but in the throat and tail, as well. When George McCracken designed the 4B and 4BF, he pretty much started with a clean page (and, I suspect, a directive to create something to compete with the Conn 8H/88H and Bach 42 series), so there are almost no parts in common between the 4BF and the old Symphony. They tagged the old Symphony (1480) with the 5B moniker for consistency, but didn't change the design at that point. Later on, they introduced a new 5B, based on the 4BF but with the old Symphony bell.

I made posts to the old forum with dimensions and pics comparing a late 1940's 1480 with a mid-late 1970's 5B, but I'm afraid they didn't make the archive. I'll have to try to find them on my various computers. My recollection is that the neckpipe of the 1480 was significantly larger then that of the later 5B, as was the f-attachment bore.

EDIT:
Found the pics in the TTF Gallery on the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160 ... ew;id=1752
https://web.archive.org/web/20111127152 ... ew;id=1751
https://web.archive.org/web/20111127160 ... ew;id=1750
User avatar
Savio
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:23 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Savio » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:47 pm

Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….
Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif
User avatar
Matt K
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Matt K » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:54 pm

Savio wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:47 pm
Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….
Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif
On the other hand, particularly on the commercial side of things, it amazes me how little arm motion there is when you look at some of the great tenor players. Like this video of Watrous playing Spain. I count two notes outside of 4th? If practice + valves lets you have that degree of dexterity... worth it?
GBP
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:08 am

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by GBP » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:39 am

Savio wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:47 pm
Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….
Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif
I think the goal is to reproduce the music in a credible manner. The approach is less important than the final product. Blair Bollinger does what works for him as did George Roberts.
Digidog
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by Digidog » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:25 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:51 pm
BGuttman wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:02 pm

... the single valve bass may limit your acceptance. Not "big enough" for bass, and too big for tenor.
Bruce,

I think you are misinformed by your preconceptions. What makes you say that a single valve bass is "not 'big enough' for bass?" The Yamaha 421 (AKA YBL-421G) does indeed have only a single rotary valve, but has a bore size of 0.563" - probably a bit larger than whatever bass trombone many TromboneChatters (including you) play. As far as I know, adding a second valve does not make a trombone play any "bigger" - in fact the extra resistance of a second valve could actually restrict air flow, thus decreasing the sound out of the bell! The Yamaha 421 seems to produce a fine "big" sound, when played by a player who can produce such a sound. I believe that the mouthpiece used (and the player behind it) have much more influence on the sound than the number of valves.

{Mouthpiece size is another discussion. I'm on the side of Chris Stearn (Blast) on this topic - bigger is not necessarily better. In any case, if you are so inclined, you can use a mouthpiece the size of a toilet bowl on any single-valve bass - they all have the same large shank receivers as their double-valve counterparts.}

In my view, a second valve is added to a trombone to facilitate the playing of certain (especially low) passages, with a few ancillary side effects:
• It's trendy, and looks cool (shows a lot of brass) - could impress your friends and those who don't know any better;
• It may help get you an audition for certain ensembles (e.g., a major symphony orchestra);
• You won't get laughed at or scorned by double-valve bigots;
• You may suffer health consequences from hefting the extra weight of a double-valve trombone (see the recent thread started by Doug Yeo), which are lessened by playing a lighter-weight single valve instrument.

But back to Walldaja's original query: A single-valve bass, such as the Yamaha 421-G is a real bass trombone, and as such is not interchangeable with a tenor trombone in most situations for most players. As Kingfan has suggested, a "concert tenor" with an F-attachment and a 0.547" bore would be a better fit. With it, he could play all the low notes he can play on his single-valve bass (with a nice full sound) and the high notes would be easier to play (and probably sound better).

Good luck with the experiment, Walldaja!
I regularly play a 421 professionally, and there are absoulutely no problems for me to provide adequate bass trombone playing in either big band or orchestral settings. In fact: I have only felt the need for a second valve those few times when the music has been idiomatically written for a bass trombone with two valves; music that require fast position changes in low register. So I side with you on this matter; and I agree: The bass trombone is a separate instrument from the tenor trombone, and I consider them not interchangeable from musical reasons.

However, the second valve does facilitate playing somewhat in some circumstances, and it sure looks brassy cool to some (simple?) minds, but not enough for me to motivate buying a two-valved trombone for now.
Welcome to visit my web store: https://www.danieleng.com/
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 730
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by BGuttman » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:40 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpreted the original post, the OP wants to use a single valve bass for all his playing.

I know of a few people using extremely large bore setups as that is what makes the sound they are after. And you can make a single valve bass do almost all the playing you would see in an amateur setting.

Would I use one if I were in Toby Oft's place? No. But in Community Band? Sure.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
imsevimse
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by imsevimse » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:57 pm

Savio wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:47 pm
Sorry I bring this topic up again but…….
Yes, its so good to learn all the possibilities a double valve in line have. Its in fact nearly endless. With a little risk to also confuse a beginner. But I have still have to say, its not a goal to move the slide as little as possible. It is an essential skill for us to learn how to move the slide. If we have the time we should listen and see Ray Premru. Its lot on internet with the Phillip Jones Brass Ensemble. He play a single and as you see he often use 6th and 7nt position. He just sound fantastic, big sound with amazing projecting aspect. That's his choice and it will not fit all, but I really think we all should try to learn to move the slide. After all, we are trombone players. It might come useful one day…….

Leif
I agree, Leif! :good:

We play trombone and not a slide tuba. A lot of valve work will be heard and there is something to the sound of a single that I like very much A single has a lot of advantages on all notes but the C and B. Premru used the Holton 169, I understand why.

I have decided the Holton 169 will be my primary bastrombone from now on. I also think most things are playable on the single and if you know the fake notes then you have more options.

A double is needed if there are sustained loud low B's and C's. Those two notes is wheere the double has an real advantage, and maybe if you play very technical stuff in the low range (I don't) and if you have no possibility to pull the tuning slide and retune the f-valve, and if you can not do the fake-notes This is when you need a double.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
brtnats
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:07 am
Location: Louisville KY

Re: Single Valve Bass Trombone for Primary Instrument

Post by brtnats » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:34 am

I play a Yamaha 822G in a community band, and as an all-around gigging bass trombone. I’ve done stints in big bands, quintets, Dixieland band, and pit orchestras with it too. I think the most important option for a gigging bass trombonist is flexibility, and I’m glad to have found it in the 822G.

I keep 2 mouthpieces (Yamaha Yeo and 59L) and the valve converter in my bag. If I show up and need to cover a tuba or bass book, sans tuba, the second valve is a necessity for me. If I need to read thorough a euphonium book or a second trombone book, I take off the valve and use a smaller mouthpiece. The horn instantly jumps and responds to these changes. My preferred configuration though? Single valve, tuned to C at the bumpers, and my larger mouthpiece. All the sound that a single-valve low C can give you, with the crispness and reliability of a tenor from middle C up. I think it’s a shame that removable second valves became optional when they were once standard, and I really enjoy the flexibility that the removable second gives me.

Single valve as primary instrument? If you want to only play trombone parts, and never anticipate being thrown into an awkward situation, then yes. And the Yamaha horns seem pretty sensitive to mouthpiece changes, which certainly helps. Me? I love to option of having that second valve when I need it, and removing it when I don’t.
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”