King 3b (and others) history

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JLivi
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King 3b (and others) history

Post by JLivi » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:06 pm

Does anyone know the eras in which King engraved H.N. White on the bells versus Concert, 2103 and everything in between? I know that I have an HN White horn from 1971-72, but I feel like I've seen horns that don't have the HN White or maybe it's the Cleveland, OH engraving from the mid-late 70's. Also, when did they start tagging the horns as 2103. Was this the same for King 2bs and 4bs?
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greenbean
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by greenbean » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:01 pm

I will take a stab at it. But we might have some true King experts around here.

--"HN White" horns go until 1965 or 1966 when the White family sold the business.
--"King Musical Instruments" (Eastlake OH) came next. They called the horns 3B Concert, 4B Sonorous, etc. There were some changes in additional engraving.
--Then came the 4-digit names beginning in 1980 or so. 2103, etc. Again, a few variants of engraving design.
JLivi
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by JLivi » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:05 pm

My horn engraving says the following

"HN White Company
King 3b
Concert
Cleveland, OH"

As I mentioned the serial number dates it to the early 70's.
RJMason
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by RJMason » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:41 pm

Hey bro!

To my knowledge, the HN white horns were made in Eastlake, the King logo as we know it today was introduced, and the company sold around 1965.

So perhaps it was a bell flare made in Cleveland that made it to Eastlake (The White family was still involved at the very beginning of moving there) and was sold later?

Or your slide is not original to the bell section.
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greenbean
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by greenbean » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:52 pm

I think HN White moved to Eastlake and then sold the company a year or two (?) later.

And, yeah, players do a lot of mix-and-matching with 3B slides. They all mate up beautifully even if made 20 or 40 years apart.
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greenbean
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by greenbean » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:09 pm

I currently own 2 Kings from 1971. A Duo Gravis (461xxx) and a 3B (459xxx). They both say "King Musical Instruments, Eastlake OH." I assume your 1972 date is wrong or your slide/bell were swapped out.
RichEKelly
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by RichEKelly » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:41 pm

I was under the belief that that 3 or 4 digits were a part assembly number so that the inner and outer slides stayed together during manufacture. My 2b+ model 2115 has serial number 9818xx on the main brace and number 710 on the slide. My 3b+ model 2125 had serial number 9281xx and 6722 on the inner and out slide, and number 937 stamped on the rotor. Not sure if it follows suite on the older king horns.
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BGuttman
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by BGuttman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:12 pm

Some older King instruments had full serial numbers in several places. I played a 1947 Silvertone (the name was changed to Silver Sonic in the 1950s) that had the serial on the slide tenon, the outer slide brace ferrule, and the bell receiver.

King used a 4 digit number starting with 13xx for Cleveland/Tempo models and 14xx for the Pro line starting some time in the 1950s. The 21xx numbers came later; late 1970s I think, with the 21xx number on the bell starting in the 1980s.
Bruce Guttman
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greenbean
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by greenbean » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:24 pm

RichEKelly wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:41 pm
I was under the belief that that 3 or 4 digits were a part assembly number so that the inner and outer slides stayed together during manufacture. My 2b+ model 2115 has serial number 9818xx on the main brace and number 710 on the slide. My 3b+ model 2125 had serial number 9281xx and 6722 on the inner and out slide, and number 937 stamped on the rotor. Not sure if it follows suite on the older king horns.
Correct. During that time period, anyway. Earlier Kings (60's into the 70's) had the entire serial # on both inners and outer. And very early ones had the entire # on the bell section. Just to keep us on our toes!
JLivi
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by JLivi » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:25 pm

Is there a way to know how old my bell is? I've owned the horn for 16 years and never knew that the bell and slide were mismatched. I never even thought about it. I also can't seem to find a serial number on my bell.

You all are flipping my world upside down right now!!!
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BGuttman
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by BGuttman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:09 pm

JLivi wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:25 pm
Is there a way to know how old my bell is? I've owned the horn for 16 years and never knew that the bell and slide were mismatched. I never even thought about it. I also can't seem to find a serial number on my bell.

You all are flipping my world upside down right now!!!
The only thing you can do is evaluate the engraving on the bell. It changed over the years. If you have a bell marked with a 21xx model number it has to be newer than 1980.

A couple of pictures of the bell engraving may cue our experts who can give you better information.

Please straighten up your world. What matters is how the gear plays, not when it was made.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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JohnL
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by JohnL » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:22 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:12 pm
King used a 4 digit number starting with 13xx for Cleveland/Tempo models and 14xx for the Pro line starting some time in the 1950s. The 21xx numbers came later; late 1970s I think, with the 21xx number on the bell starting in the 1980s.
Actually, the four-digit model numbers (I suppose "catalog number might be more accurate) appear in the King catalogs as far back as the 1920's - it's just that no one really used them much, and they never actually appeared on the instruments themselves. The 3B was identified as the 1403 from its introduction.

Clevelands and American Standards had three-digit numbers from the start (604 and later 605 & 606 for Cleveland, 210 for American Standard). When the Tempo trombones came out in the early 1960's, they were give four digit numbers (1305 and 1306) - I suppose to more closely identify them with the pro-line horns.

I wish we could precisely nail down when the change from 14xx to 21xx was made...
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greenbean
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by greenbean » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:55 pm

JohnL wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:22 pm
...
I wish we could precisely nail down when the change from 14xx to 21xx was made...
The 21xx numbers starting appearing on the bells in about '80. By 81, for sure.
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Kingfan
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by Kingfan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm

My King catalog dated 7-15-73 has four digit model numbers for all trombones except the student 605 Cleveland. Tempo was a 1305, 3B Concert was a 1403, 4B a 1404, 2B Liberty was a 1407 (????), 5B Symphony Bass was 1480 (??????? again!), Duo Gravis was 1490.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Kingfan
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by Kingfan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:48 pm

greenbean wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:55 pm
JohnL wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:22 pm
...
I wish we could precisely nail down when the change from 14xx to 21xx was made...
The 21xx numbers starting appearing on the bells in about '80. By 81, for sure.
My 2B Liberty 734XXX, which I think is from the late 70s according to the serial number chart, would back that up.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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JohnL
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by JohnL » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:10 pm

Kingfan wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm
2B Liberty was a 1407 (????), 5B Symphony Bass was 1480 (??????? again!
When those two models were introduced (1930's), King wasn't yet using the 2B-3B-4B-5B designations. The 1407 (Liberty 2-B) was a dual-bore offshoot of the older 1451 Liberty (the numbers don't seem to have been assigned systematically). Eventually, people started calling the Liberty 2-B just "2B", so when King introduce a larger, .508" model, they took advantage of the name recognition of the 2B and called the new horn the 3B. The 4B followed a few years later, and the old 1480 Symphony model was eventually rechristened as the 5B.

When King went to the 21xx designations, they cleaned up a lot of the legacy numbers, so the 1407 became the 2102 and the 1480 became the 2105 (though there was a complete redesign of the 5B at around the same time).
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Kingfan
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by Kingfan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:31 pm

Thanks, John. Makes sense.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
SirJohn
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Re: King 3b (and others) history

Post by SirJohn » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:10 am

So anyone know why it seems some 70s Kings have the ropey engraving and some don't. Was it just certain years that had ropey in the 70s?
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