step up .525 bores

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Diana6
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step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:57 pm

I believe these are all intermediate/step up .525 trombones.

Blessing B-78
Besson 737f
Yamaha 356R dual bore .500-.525

They seem to be good value trombones...looking to purchase a med. bore for a High School student.

Which would you choose?
Last edited by Diana6 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Posaunus
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Re: Besson 737f

Post by Posaunus » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:06 pm

It appears that you are right about the size.

From Google:
https://www.playgroundmusiccenter.com/p ... -case.aspx

If in good condition, the Yamaha 356R would be preferable to a Besson.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by pompatus » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Of the three, the Yamaha will easily be the most consistent.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Posaunus » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:17 pm

pompatus wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:11 pm
Of the three, the Yamaha will easily be the most consistent.
:good:
Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:32 pm

Should I look for any others besides the Yamaha 356R?
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BGuttman
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by BGuttman » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Diana6 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:32 pm
Should I look for any others besides the Yamaha 356R?
Benge 175
Bach TB-200 or Omega
Yamaha 646 is not considered "Intermediate" but its been supplanted by at least two newer models and usually goes for a good price.
Reynolds Onyx is a silver plated horn with a black coating.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by hyperbolica » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:47 pm

You might also look at the King 607 and 608. You can find a fair number of those used. And there's a Bach 200 something that's also a .525 bore. The Kanstul is relatively rare. You might even throw the Bach 36b in there, and the JP 231. Also don't forget the Wessex horn.
Last edited by hyperbolica on Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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greenbean
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by greenbean » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:57 pm

I would choose the Yamaha. Also a Yamaha 446 - easier to find and less expensive than the 646.
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Geordie
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Geordie » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:19 pm

In terms of additional choices in this size look at used King 3B+ Comes with or without F attachment. As usual, the actual choice will be influenced by the type of repertoire, but 3B+ is, in my experience, a good all-rounder.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Matt K » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:25 pm

I love my 356.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by LeoInFL » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:47 pm

Many years ago I had a Getzen 1025F. Great horn! A little hard to find though.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by pedrombon » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:10 pm

I own a 356 (at this time it's lent to my 13-year-old nephew). It is a great horn, beautiful and very versatile.
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:54 am

There seems to be 356R's around to choose from. The 3B+, Benge 175, Getzen 1025f, are pretty difficult to find and more expensive I believe. I have a small budget, so I think the Yam 356R might be our best bet. Yam 446 is usually above my price range. Thanks all.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by greenbean » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:01 am

Diana6 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:54 am
There seems to be 356R's around to choose from. The 3B+, Benge 175, Getzen 1025f, are pretty difficult to find and more expensive I believe. I have a small budget, so I think the Yam 356R might be our best bet. Yam 446 is usually above my price range. Thanks all.
You are exactly right. Go for it. They are nice horns and can be bargains!
Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:54 am

I have a few more questions before I feel comfortable purchasing another trombone.

The 356R is a .500 - .525 dual bore. How does it compare to trombones that are straight bore .525? My son's band director wants him to get a 36B, so I'm wondering if the 356R is close enough in regards to the sound.

Also, is the 356R going to be different enough from my son's Olds Special to make a difference for Concert Band? Could he also use it for jazz band or is the Special better for jazz?
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by bimmerman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:27 am

I used my 356R for everything when I was in school. It's a great horn and definitely can do the job-- I wish I hadn't sold it.

However, if a good 36B crops up, I'd probably pick that instead.

Are you able to take your son and have him try the 356R and/or a 36B?
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BGuttman
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by BGuttman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:32 am

What's the fetish with the 36B? Or did he just say "like a 36B"? A 36B is a professional grade horn in medium bore. You originally talked about "step--up" and listed a number of trombones considered "step-up" (although a good one can last a lifetime -- provided you aren't going to audition for a top quality orchestra like the Cleveland Orchestra).

If "like a 36B" there are lots of alternatives that are (in my mind) just as good:

Benge 175F
Conn 79H
Holton TR-160
King 2125F (3B Plus with F)
Yamaha 646, 684, 640

If you are able to consider a Medium Bore with F that isn't a Pro horn:

Bach TB-200 or Omega
Blessing B-78
King 607, 608
Yamaha 446

Note that there are probably some other models I've missed\

There are other models that would work just as well, like the Yamaha 356, Kanstul (I forget the number -- 760?), Olds Recording with F, Olds Superstar, Reynolds Onyx, Holton TR-680, and many others. Having a teacher or other good player help in selecting an instrument can help.

Another thing to consider is what he wants. If he's planning on pursuing a Music degree in college, don't buy a Medium -- go large bore (completely different set of suggestions then). A large bore would last him into college (at which time he should be able to decide for himself what kind of trombone he wants/needs).
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:02 am

I don't think he can try out the 356's I'm looking at right now.

It's the band director who suggested a 36 or 42. I'm not willing to pay for a pro horn, so I'm trying to find something, like a step up, that will work for multiple settings, relatively easy/fun to play, and sounds good.
He is a small kid, so that's another reason I am thinking medium instead of large bore.

Frankly, I'm mad that the School is not providing a decent instrument for him.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by BGuttman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:14 am

School budgets are pretty tight and there may not be money in the Band program for personal instruments.

Don't let small fool you. I know a 100 pound lady who can outblow me on a bass trombone. She's a fantastic player.

I suspect the Band Director won't know the difference as long as you buy something with an F-attachment.

I would suggest contacting DJ Kennedy and have him look into what his inventory looks like. He has a house full (literally) of good used trombones at very good prices. That would be your best bang for the buck. I know he's registered on this Site, but he's more active on the Trombone Forum Facebook page.
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FeelMyRath
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by FeelMyRath » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:45 pm

The 356 is a great instrument. I sold mine not long after buying my Rath R4F and I do miss it these days, although I wouldn't swap back!
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:55 pm

I found a nice 356R for a really good price. It comes with a 7C MP, but I have seen that a Yamaha 48 is often paired with it. My son plays his Special with a 3C and an Ambassador with a 12C for marching.

Would a 7C would work well with a 356R for a 14 year old?
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by FeelMyRath » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:26 pm

Yes
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Posaunus
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Posaunus » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:02 pm

Diana6 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:55 pm
Would a 7C would work well with a 356R for a 14 year old?
A 7C should work just fine with a Yamaha 356R. This is a good combination, that your son should acclimate to quickly - and then concentrate on making music, and not worry too much about equipment!
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:13 am

A 7C should work just fine with a Yamaha 356R. This is a good combination, that your son should acclimate to quickly - and then concentrate on making music, and not worry too much about equipment!
[/quote]


Agreed...This is a surprise gift for my son. He is all about music and knows nothing about equipment.

Mom is the conscientious consumer. :wink:
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Davidus1 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:27 am

Does he have a private instructor? If so, I would work with that person to decide on a mouthpiece. Best wishes in your search.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by bimmerman » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:06 pm

I used a 7C with mine for years. Ended up not being the right size for me, ultimately, but it was absolutely fine.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by edgrissom » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:19 am

The Getzen Capri 525 is a pretty nice horn that is not too expensive.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by castrubone » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:12 am

Conn 52H is a great horn. It’s a dual bore .525/.547 I believe.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by PaulT » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:55 pm

You are a good mom, Diane. ;)

I recall going through similar forum quests/google searches when I was hunting for horns for my own kids. Lot's of questions and concerns. Good luck and enjoy the experience. Frustrating as it may be at times, it is part of being a good parent.

(and while there are lots of good horns and choices, you will never go wrong with getting a Yamaha. Everything that company does, it does well.)
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by jawbone62 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:33 am

Conn 52H is a versatile and underrated horn which i would really recommend and something of a bargain in my view. Great for blending in section work with smaller and larger horns and covers all the bases. Getzen 725 has similar dual bore .525/.547 set up and price i believe but Conn more refined and easier to play based on recent experience.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by deanmccarty » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:18 am

The Jupiter 1100F is a GREAT player... it plays better than the Conn 52H and Blessing 78H... the Getzen 1036 is a fantastic instrument. Either of these would be perfect.
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:45 pm

Thanks so much for all the suggestions.

Yesterday, I bought a really nice 356R in my low budget range. It came with a Bach 7C and a Yamaha 45C2. My son hasn't seen it yet as I bought it while on the road.

Does anyone know of a good website or video to help a student switch to an F attachment?

Also, I see that these F attachment do not have counterweights or a spot to place one. Is there a solution if you want to make it more balanced?
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by FeelMyRath » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:50 pm

Congrats! The 356 is really well balanced so doesn't need a counterweight IMO. If your son really finds he needs one, the Rath detachable counterweight may be a good option. The amount of weight on it can also be adjusted, although they aren't cheap.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by BGuttman » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:03 pm

I learned F-attachment from a book called "F-attachment and Bass Trombone by Alan Ostrander. It's an oldie but a goodie. There are newer ones, but you need a basic book at first after which he can graduate to something more detailed.

Newbies on the F-attachment sometimes develop a habit of using the valve for all C's and B's; even when it means moving the slide as much as if they didn't have one. The F-attachment is a convenience and a range extender and should be treated as such.

Good luck to him with it.
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:55 pm

Sounds good. I'll get the Ostrander book for him.

The 356R does feel heavy up front to me, but I'm just comparing it to a small bore straight horn that has a counterweight. I don't know how you guys play the really heavy trombones with the awkward hand hold areas. Yikes.

The Rath detachable weight would be nice, but... it costs more than the trombone. lol!
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Matt K » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:04 pm

I just had a counterweight added to my 356. Parts + labor was ~$80, but I already had a counterweight lying around. I might have another one... if I can remember to dig it up. Your tech can source the parts from Yamaha very easily though. I used an OE Thayer brace and made mine detachable so that isn't necessary and will lower cost if you don't by a few bucks too.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:53 pm

Matt, if possible, could you post a picture sometime?

Did it require the weight of the brace and the counterweight to give you the balance that you wanted?

Does Yamaha also sell braces like Thayer?
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Matt K » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:44 pm

Diana6 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:53 pm
Matt, if possible, could you post a picture sometime?

Did it require the weight of the brace and the counterweight to give you the balance that you wanted?

Does Yamaha also sell braces like Thayer?
At the moment, no, its in the shop getting something custom done to it. But that should be done sometime this week!

Yeah, Yamaha will sell the parts, I Just had some pares lying around and they are long enough. Your tech probably has something that would be sufficient lying around too but you'll have to make sure its thick enough to accept whatever coutnerweight you want to use.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by skaskaster » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:40 am

Check also the getzen eterna 725 model. Great horn with f attachment.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by PaulT » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:16 pm

Diane,

if you want to try a counter weight, but don't want to spend that much on what may prove to be either a temporary need or no need at all, you could just get some flexible lead weights (like golfers or fishermen might use). You could just wrap or stick the weights anywhere you want (bottom of tuning slide would be inconspicuous).



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Matt K
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Matt K » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:49 pm

Here's a picture of the work he did. This one is ornamental and modular. Friend of mine out in the midwest who isn't a musician at all made it wanting to see how hard it would be. Says it took longer than he'd want but he has a 3D printer so we're working on something to make other ones out of that material instead. Obviously one that isn't modular and was just a weight would take a lot less labor & parts.
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356 Counterweight.jpg
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Diana6
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by Diana6 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:40 pm

Very cool Matt.

I think I would go with a trial flexible lead tape first or something similar. I used to use the lead tape on my tennis rackets. My son didn't mention the balance or weight at all, so maybe it's unnecessary. He loves it and it sounds really nice!

I brought the 356 to our tech and he said that the slide and bell are great. He wants to just work on the rotor and put new string on it. It is a bit clunky and loud.

He seems to like the Yamaha 45C2 mouthpiece better than the 7C. I'm not sure if he needs to just get used to the 7C or if the other one suits his face better? He did sound better on the 45C2.
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Re: step up .525 bores

Post by greenbean » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:00 pm

I think most players would be fine with a 356 the way it is (without counterweight).
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