Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

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Tarkus697
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Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Tarkus697 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:29 pm

Has anyone ever done this? I've had issues with the string catching on my Yamaha 356G during gigs despite adjustment and I really am not crazy about how it feels compared to say my Bach 36BO trigger.

Is this an intensive job to replace the string-based trigger with something akin to the Bach or would a full valve replacement be necessary? I use this horn for my wedding/events band and funk/soul gigs so if it's an advanced process, I'll like just deal with the string-based mechanism.
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BGuttman
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by BGuttman » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:50 pm

The action of a string linkage and a direct linkage are exactly opposite. Some of the Techs around here can detail the changes that have to happen but I seem to remember reversing the valve as part of the process. It's certainly possible with enough money.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by FeelMyRath » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:37 pm

There's nothing wrong with a properly strung 356G (it was my main instrument for over 20 years). Make sure the lever is as stock and check it is strung correctly with a suitable material and you'll be fine.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Tarkus697 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:07 pm

Fair enough. My horn tech concurred and said it's a very involved process. I'll have him restring it again and go from there.

Thanks for the input!
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Matt K
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Matt K » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:37 pm

Quite ironic! I was thinking about doing the opposite to one of my horns specifically because I like the way my 356G feels.

Perhaps consider isolating the problem into its two component parts:

1) The action
2) The ergonomics

As mentioned, it *could* be properly instrument, but it might not be the string linkage at all. If you don't routinely oil your valve (like at least once a week) and the moving parts, they can corrode over time. Heck, they can corrode over time either way, but not oiling quickens the process. That will give you the impression that the string is catching when it's actually just making contact with the casing inside the rotor, leading to the friction.

Secondly, you might not like the way the thumb actuates the valve as its on the opposite side of your Bach 36. There are several options. First, there are several ergonomic devices that can help shift where the fulcrum is. This includes the Ax Handle, Shires Thumb Rest, Edwards Bullet brace, the Neotech brace, Hagmann/Rath hand rest. Each work a little differently. The Neotech is the cheapest and least invasive and honestly the one that I like the best. I use one on all of my horns. It makes actuating the valve easier because the weight of the horn is distributed throughout the hand.

Secondly, you could have a custom one made. This is where you would decide if you want to keep it string or go mechanical. I prefer the former but the mechanical are undeniably more popular these days. I had one made for a Bach 50B2 a few years ago because I didn't find it to be particularly comfrotable. My tech made it adjustable and added a little paddle on the part my thumb rests on. I'd probably try this as a last resort. Certainly I'd make sure the valve is working first and at least try a Neotech because of the price. If it sitll isn't working, at least you would be rid of any corrosion and know the valve is working at its best. And the neotech is like $30 which is way cheaper than a linkage conversion is going to cost.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:40 pm

Did it to my 36H. Cost about $200. Totally worth it!
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Bonearzt » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:49 pm

I actually prefer string linkages. Just can't do it easily on most horns.

String is usually quieter, a shorter throw and easily maintained.

But as usual, my opinion & $5 gets a coffee at starbutts.....
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by greenbean » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:38 pm

All things being equal, the string linkage will have a shorter throw...
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by cigmar » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:49 am

I replaced the string linkage on my 88H decades ago and haven't looked back. Don't remember where I got the linkage, but it was very inexpensive and I was able to do it myself.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by hornbuilder » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:19 am

"All things being equal, the string linkage will have a shorter throw..."

No, that is not true. Everything depends on geometry, regardless of string or mechanical activation. There are some poorly designed string linkages out there too!
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by heldenbone » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:08 pm

At least on a King 4BF, you pretty can easily move to a mechanical linkage with a bit of ingenuity. I did so, and lived with it for a few months before reverting to the original string linkage. I reverted not due to any mechanical shortcoming, but due to isolation from the neoprene bumper strikes. The King instrument is built so lightly that vibration and impact is transmitted to bell, which rings quite eagerly. The key to (not) reversing the rotor is to move the point where the trigger pulls to the other side of the spindle bearing. The down side of the arrangement is that the ball joint is a bit more outboard of the rotor bushing than it would be with the floaing linkage bar, so the bearing might over time suffer from off-axis stress. Moving the pull point was accomplished with a brass washer and a couple of drilled holes. None of the original parts were altered or destroyed, so the mod is reversible.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by PaulT » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:35 am

I got fed up with both types of linkages so I just got rid of them. Now I just turn the valve by hand. I have to put the horn down and stop playing for a few notes, but the short breaks keep my lips fresh.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by greenbean » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:51 am

I have converted a few horns to mechanical linkages. I am fine with string but I can't tolerate a lever that comes in from the right of my thumb. To play pain-free, I need the lever on the left so my thumb can move well out to its right.

Here is my Benge 190F. I had an older Bach lever/linkage put on because I really like them...
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greenbean
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by greenbean » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:52 am

I shelled out $50 for parts and $100 for labor.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Jnoxon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:07 pm

I went to Dou Bro and bought the parts for around $25 to convert to a mini ball kind of setup. Whoever the tech was that said in was a long involved process is prolly not someone I would take a horn to for any work. It took about an hour of my time to do the conversion from string to mini ball.
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Jnoxon
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Jnoxon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:13 pm

I forgot to post the link to Du Bro. They mainly do radio control model airplanes, but here is the link to the miniball parts that they sell.

https://www.dubro.com/products/heavy-duty-ball-links
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Williams 4,6, 8, 9, and 10
.490, .500, .520, .520, .565 bore sizes.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by Tarkus697 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:59 am

Update: New tech I took it to reworked, restrung, and cleaned the hell out of the rotor. It's working much better but this horn won't get nearly as much stage time since I upgraded to a Rath R2F that's now my primary.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by timothy42b » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:25 pm

PaulT wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:35 am
I got fed up with both types of linkages so I just got rid of them. Now I just turn the valve by hand. I have to put the horn down and stop playing for a few notes, but the short breaks keep my lips fresh.
Bravo!!!!!!
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by bigbandbone » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:18 pm

Both from a player's perspective and a repairman's perspective I much prefer a string linkage. YouTube has a number of good " how to" videos so you can do it on your own at zero cost.
My only advice is only use the yellow Yamaha string on Yamaha horns. It's too thick for most other horns and especially vintage Conn's. Buy a spool of braided fishing line. Works great.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by hyperbolica » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Yeah, string links are the smoothest, longest lasting, and lowest maintenance. I play both regularly and the string links are the only ones I don't worry about.
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Re: Replace string rotary valve with different mechanism?

Post by etbone » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:05 pm

I have played horns, when the valve string (wax string) was over 10 years old.

String should NOT pass over, itself.
Hard part is, getting the string tight. (Mech. systems, have a little loose tolerance... on that respect...string tolerance is about the same.

To the op....I don't understand the statement, " caught up"?

you may need a stronger return spring. or you have some other problem.
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