Cup mute

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Savio
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Cup mute

Post by Savio » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:28 am

Hello Trombone players! A mute question. What distance should it be between the bell and the cup? My mute seems to go to fare inside my Holton 180. The cup is only a few millimeters from the bell.

Leif
baileyman
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Re: Cup mute

Post by baileyman » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:48 am

How does it sound?

Incidentally, to my ears, most bass trombone cups and straights are too big, too voluminous. They thus emphasize lower overtone frequencies than tenor mutes. The problem is when they are all in the same range, the bass often sounds relatively tubby. For sound I would experiment with reducing the volumes in the mutes, maybe fashioning a removable end and fitting smaller disks inside to adjust the forments.
Savio
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Re: Cup mute

Post by Savio » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:54 am

Yes, it sounds a little tubby, nearly like a bucket mute. I think its going to fare inside the bell.
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BGuttman
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Re: Cup mute

Post by BGuttman » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:58 am

I like my bass bone cup to fit about 6-12 mm (1/4 to 1/2 inch) from the bell. A "tight" cup is 3 mm. If the cup toches the bell you get no sound.
Bruce Guttman
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ghmerrill
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Re: Cup mute

Post by ghmerrill » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:52 am

Also, keep in mind that there are different size "bass trombone" mutes. Some fit some horns better than others (due to bell throat size/taper). Not sure which are best for a 180. And different materials will make mutes sound differently. I like my Denis Wick aluminum adjustable cup mute a lot, but it may have an issue "blending" with a section using all fiber mutes.

As an adjusting tip, I've found that strips of duct tape put on the corks can be used to adjust the fit a bit -- and I use them to eliminate any of that awful "mute cork squeak" that I otherwise tend to get with the cork. The duct tape surface holds well and is non-squeaky.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
Savio
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Re: Cup mute

Post by Savio » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:56 pm

ghmerrill wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:52 am
Also, keep in mind that there are different size "bass trombone" mutes. Some fit some horns better than others (due to bell throat size/taper). Not sure which are best for a 180. And different materials will make mutes sound differently. I like my Denis Wick aluminum adjustable cup mute a lot, but it may have an issue "blending" with a section using all fiber mutes.

As an adjusting tip, I've found that strips of duct tape put on the corks can be used to adjust the fit a bit -- and I use them to eliminate any of that awful "mute cork squeak" that I otherwise tend to get with the cork. The duct tape surface holds well and is non-squeaky.
I will try that! I thought the distance from bell to cup should be nearly one inch or 1-2 centimeters?
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ghmerrill
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Re: Cup mute

Post by ghmerrill » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:43 pm

At 2 centimeters from the bell, that cup won't be doing all that much to affect the sound. :shock: One reason I got the Wick adjustable mute was to be able to (uh, of course) adjust the cup/bell distance easily and learn how that worked. Of course, that distance isn't all that matters, and (with an adjustable mute) you have to figure out how far it should be seated in the bell as well. But with the Wick you can take the cup off, get the mute working well (good sound, good pitch and intonation) as a straight mute, and then put the cup on and tune it as a cup mute. It can be used as a straight mute, but it's not the greatest straight mute in the world -- at least for me, on my horn.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
Bonearzt
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Re: Cup mute

Post by Bonearzt » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:15 pm

I prefer my sound when I hold my mute so that the cup is about 2-3 inches from my bell, reduces the tubbiness.
Of course that doesn't work when I need to use the triggers....
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Savio
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Re: Cup mute

Post by Savio » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:30 am

Bonearzt wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:15 pm
I prefer my sound when I hold my mute so that the cup is about 2-3 inches from my bell, reduces the tubbiness.
Of course that doesn't work when I need to use the triggers....
That's what I thought. And by the way, is there any cup or straight mute that works well in the very low register? A bucket usually works ok down there, but the others usually have problems especially in pedal register.

Leif
pompatus
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Re: Cup mute

Post by pompatus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:42 am

Savio wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:30 am
That's what I thought. And by the way, is there any cup or straight mute that works well in the very low register? A bucket usually works ok down there, but the others usually have problems especially in pedal register.

Leif
One recommendation that is often offered, is to drill a 2mm-3mm hole in the mute which “fixes” issues in the lower register. I’ve seen the recommendation several times, specifically in regard to the red and white Humes & Berg cup mutes. Placement of the hole seems to differ, as I’ve seen people say to center it in the flat end or in the main cone just above the lip of the cup. I’ve done this on my bass trombone cup mute, and it has made a difference in opening up that lower range.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Cup mute

Post by ghmerrill » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:19 am

I've done that too with my H&B tenor mutes (cup and straight). In those cases I used three small holes (1/8" or less?) in a triangle pattern (about 1.5" from hole to hole) in the bottom of the mute. I also tried it with my Windy City symphonic bass straight mute with some holes spaced along the perimeter of the (copper) base. But that had no obvious effect and I just taped over them. But I don't use that mute because it's heavy and a pain.

I tried it with a H&B bass cup mute, but never could get that to work well and decided that I'd got the wrong size (too large) bass mute for my horn.

With my aluminum Wick straight and adjustable cup mutes, no such trickery is required and they provide great response and intonation without it. They're light, easy to use, and play in tune.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
baileyman
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Re: Cup mute

Post by baileyman » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:22 pm

Those are good adjustments as they add some transparency to the mute to allow the long low frequency waves to reach their nodes beyond the bell.
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