TromboneChat

for a flat tuned trombone , for reaching a higher pitch or for having more room on 1st position , would trimming the tuning slide only effect the intonation , or the sound and respons as well ? how many mm each side would be "max before the sound eventually change character? in europe the tuning is as sharp as 443-444 hz some places. demanding when f ex the temperature is low.

IF done correctly & carefully, trimming should only affect the intonation!

But it COULD affect the response if there's any bit of tension being released and the tubing fitted correctly in the process.

I wouldn't go more than an inch total, 1/2" per side as you would then be changing the length of the straight portion of the bell section in that area. But there's no telling if that would affect the character of the horn at all.


Eric

I've had the tuning slide trimmed of every Bach instrument I've owned. If there are any downsides, they are far outweighed by being able to play in the center of the pitch.

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:09 am I wouldn't go more than an inch total, 1/2" per side

1/2" per side will raise the pitch 15 cents, from A=440 to 444

it is unlikely to affect the basic sound or response, if anything they will be better in the context of the groups you play in because you are able to play in tune.

when you cut the outer tubes you should then also cut the inner tubes similarly?

lets say you cut 1/2 inch each side then it is totally 2 inches material removed. though tiny it is still an amount of material. there is no chance this will effect the "weight" of the sound ?

havard wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:05 pm when you cut the outer tubes you should then also cut the inner tubes similarly?

lets say you cut 1/2 inch each side then it is totally 2 inches material removed. though tiny it is still an amount of material. there is no chance this will effect the "weight" of the sound ?

Similar to Gabe, I’ve had to cut down the t-slide on every Bach I’ve owned. I’m in the middle of trimming a little more from my bass. Perhaps it affects the weight of the sound, but I don’t really know—I wasn’t able to make a direct comparison of pre- and post-cut. The important thing is that the horn will be up to pitch once the t-slide is cut.

Yes, you will cut a total of 2” of material, but the total length of the instrument will be reduced by only 1”. You’ll have to cut 1/2” from each of the male (inner) tubes of the t-slide, and 1/2” from each of the female (outer) tubes of the t-slide.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:38 am I've had the tuning slide trimmed of every Bach instrument I've owned. If there are any downsides, they are far outweighed by being able to play in the center of the pitch.

how many mm did you trim en each side ?

Ya gotta trim what it takes to be in tune. I am sure the horn would play better if you did not need to trim. But if you take the stress of of playing in tune, you can play better.
I have trimmed almost every horn of mine. My pbone and my Conn alto are the only two I did not.
Use A in second to figure out how far off you thing you are. Try tuning flat twice the amount you need to trim and double check the measurements. The distance twice as flat should be more measurable in first position.
If you have one, play a bone that is intune then go back to the problem horn. It will give you confidence on the amount you need to cut.
And the best way is a tech that will help you. Maybe cut a little and check it. Best to pay more cutting the a lot more soldering on longer pipes.

havard wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:08 pm how many mm did you trim en each side ?

10-12

whitbey wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:13 am Ya gotta trim what it takes to be in tune. I am sure the horn would play better if you did not need to trim. But if you take the stress of of playing in tune, you can play better.

And the best way is a tech that will help you. Maybe cut a little and check it. Best to pay more cutting the a lot more soldering on longer pipes.

I don't agree with your statement regarding the horn playing better WITHOUT trimming.
IF done correctly, it most likely WILL positively affect the playability of the horn!
Plus if it allows the player to play the horn comfortably in tune without having to force issues, all the better!

And if there's stress built into the horn at the factory or through it's use by a previous owner, this could eliminate that stress and allow the horn to resonate as a complete unit & respond like it should!


Eric

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:16 am

whitbey wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:13 am Ya gotta trim what it takes to be in tune. I am sure the horn would play better if you did not need to trim. But if you take the stress of of playing in tune, you can play better.

And the best way is a tech that will help you. Maybe cut a little and check it. Best to pay more cutting the a lot more soldering on longer pipes.

I don't agree with your statement regarding the horn playing better WITHOUT trimming.
IF done correctly, it most likely WILL positively affect the playability of the horn!
Plus if it allows the player to play the horn comfortably in tune without having to force issues, all the better!

And if there's stress built into the horn at the factory or through it's use by a previous owner, this could eliminate that stress and allow the horn to resonate as a complete unit & respond like it should!


Eric

I was referring to if you lost some taper it may not be what was intended but in tune is better.

I trimmed .5" off both ends of the tuning slide on my 36H. Wish I trimmed .75".

Eric
[/quote]

I was referring to if you lost some taper it may not be what was intended but in tune is better.
[/quote]

Edwards, I believe, is about the only company that has any taper in the straight legs.

So unless you incorrectly cut on the crook, there's no issue with disturbing any tapers inside the bore.

Eric

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:25 pm
Edwards, I believe, is about the only company that has any taper in the straight legs.

So unless you incorrectly cut on the crook, there's no issue with disturbing any tapers inside the bore.

Eric

Not to be contrary, but asking a question [next paragraph]. Shires advertises (as I believe Edwards did before) on its Bollinger model that the inner pipe of the first leg of the tuning slide (coming directly from the valves) is tapered and manufactured from a billet, or solid brass piece. This is certainly uncommon, but I’m guessing it’s not new—someone in history has probably tried it prior to the late 20th or early 21st century.

I’m assuming that making a tapered piece after the valves affects the response and/or intonation in some way that Bollinger and Shires thought desirable. If so, I’m guessing it would be difficult to trim a tuning slide on one of those models and maintain the desired response and/or intonation?

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:48 pm Not to be contrary, but asking a question [next paragraph]. Shires advertises (as I believe Edwards did before) on its Bollinger model that the inner pipe of the first leg of the tuning slide (coming directly from the valves) is tapered and manufactured from a billet, or solid brass piece.

I don't think this is true. The Bollinger model was developed after I left the company, but AFAIK the difference in the main tuning slide is on the outer sleeve of the first tuning slide, not the part soldered to the valve section. That outer sleeve is manufactured from a solid brass piece rather than nickel tubing.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:38 am I've had the tuning slide trimmed of every Bach instrument I've owned. If there are any downsides, they are far outweighed by being able to play in the center of the pitch.

What he said. I had a Bach LT16-M cut down about a half inch and am very happy with it. Unsure why they make horns too long these days.

it is a similar thread on the modification and repair. the owner of the 36h says the trimmed tining slide had a strong negative effect on the sound and response . that being Said that horn was heavily trimmed . so i believe that trimming can affect the response , but it depends on how many mm.

havard wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:22 pm the owner of the 36h says the trimmed tining slide had a strong negative effect on the sound and response . that being Said that horn was heavily trimmed .

Hacking up an alto is probably asking for trouble ... and doing any heavy reduction to a horn that short is going to screw it up for sure.

Leanit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:01 pm

havard wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:22 pm the owner of the 36h says the trimmed tining slide had a strong negative effect on the sound and response . that being Said that horn was heavily trimmed .

Hacking up an alto is probably asking for trouble ... and doing any heavy reduction to a horn that short is going to screw it up for sure.

Nope. Not the case.