Source for Levers

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hyperbolica
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Source for Levers

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:04 am

I've recently bought a horn and some parts for a valve conversion project (converting a single valve horn to a double dependent). I'm just short some levers. The "new" rotors are string drive, but I suppose could be converted to something else.

What kind of levers can I get that are going to be compatible with this arrangement? I'm not particularly fond of the existing lever, but I'm not sure if the options with this arrangement are any improvement. Any suggestions?




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Backbone
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by Backbone » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:17 am

Not sure brand of horn you are working on. Also, I am not a repair tech. But I just happened across the website below and hopefully it can be of help.

https://www.votawtool.com/gb-d-rotor-lever.html

As you browse through you will find brand specific levers and all kinds of repair tools for the trombone - tenor and bass. There are also F levers as well.
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JohnL
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by JohnL » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Looks like an Olds S-20.

You'll probably need some custom-made parts for the linkage. The valve is farther up the neckpipe than most horns, so you'll need a longer connecting rod. Of course, if you're dropping in a new set of valves, you might be able to relocate the F rotor to be closer to the tenon joint.
Last edited by JohnL on Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hyperbolica
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:36 pm

Good eye. Yes, it's an S-20. You don't think I can use some more standard levers? Other behind the brace levers?
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JohnL
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by JohnL » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:38 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:36 pm
Good eye. Yes, it's an S-20. You don't think I can use some more standard levers? Other behind the brace levers?
You still have to deal with the location of the valve. What sort of linkage were you thinking of?
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by Bonearzt » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:41 pm

The thumb paddle and pivot point are the most important areas to get right, the linkage can easily be fabricated to any length or shape needed.

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whitbey
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by whitbey » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:58 am

I had my lever replaced on my old Bach bass bone after it was damaged. I wanted the lever closer to the horn for a shorter throw and to line up with my large hand. The lever was just brass bar stock brazed. Because it was brazed it was soft so a second bar was soldered on for strength. Been good for about 10 + years.

There are pics in my profile. Here is one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... FIOEE/view
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Edwards brass bell 547/562
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hyperbolica
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:29 pm

whitbey wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:58 am
I had my lever replaced on my old Bach bass bone after it was damaged. I wanted the lever closer to the horn for a shorter throw and to line up with my large hand. The lever was just brass bar stock brazed. Because it was brazed it was soft so a second bar was soldered on for strength. Been good for about 10 + years.

There are pics in my profile. Here is one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... FIOEE/view
Um. Wow. That Bach 50 must have been one hell of a plumbing project. That's quite the C valve.

Your levers are probably similar to what I'm going to wind up with. My pivot will be on the other side of the bell brace, just because the configuration I'm starting out with is a little different, with the brace closer to the bell.

I'm curious about how that second valve trigger works out, instead of going underneath the bell/slide connection, it goes over and through. I guess your motion has to be more up and down because of the orientation of the pivot.

I've considered a glantz bar type arrangement because it would be simpler. The bar would just have a mini-ball on each end.

Anyway, thanks for the idea!
mrdeacon
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by mrdeacon » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:08 am

You could always alter the location of the F attachment, remove that bit of neckpipe in front of the valve and move the valve section forward. Then either use the old bit or have a new bit of neckpipe fabricated and placed after the valve.

I can't imagine it having too large of an effect on the blow (considering Indy horns take a larger chunk of the neckpipe out) and that gives you a much larger range of options when it comes to linkages.

You could even turn the J bend on the S-20 into a Williams style J tuning slide to makeup the difference in length. Minick did that to a few 62H style horns over the years, he also sometimes removed the TIS while doing this to lighten up the slide.
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Schlitz
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by Schlitz » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:07 am

I had Benn Hansson do a trigger mod for my P-22, and a Bach 50BL (converted to Olsen rotaries). It was real simple. I showed up with the horn, held it, and he whipped out the sharpie to make some marks. Closer to completion he asked for a photo of my hand holding the horn and a printed scan. He nailed it. No adjustment needed when I picked the horn up. I’ve seen some custom lever work done by Matthew Walker too. Eric already chimed in. I read somewhere that Mike Olsen now sells a custom F lever too.

https://www.instrumentinnovations.com/p ... category=0

I’ll post a picture of the P-22 mod over the weekend.
whitbey
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by whitbey » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:53 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:29 pm
whitbey wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:58 am
I had my lever replaced on my old Bach bass bone after it was damaged. I wanted the lever closer to the horn for a shorter throw and to line up with my large hand. The lever was just brass bar stock brazed. Because it was brazed it was soft so a second bar was soldered on for strength. Been good for about 10 + years.

There are pics in my profile. Here is one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... FIOEE/view
Um. Wow. That Bach 50 must have been one hell of a plumbing project. That's quite the C valve.

Your levers are probably similar to what I'm going to wind up with. My pivot will be on the other side of the bell brace, just because the configuration I'm starting out with is a little different, with the brace closer to the bell.

I'm curious about how that second valve trigger works out, instead of going underneath the bell/slide connection, it goes over and through. I guess your motion has to be more up and down because of the orientation of the pivot.

I've considered a glantz bar type arrangement because it would be simpler. The bar would just have a mini-ball on each end.

Anyway, thanks for the idea!
The second valve C works good. Better then the standard under thing for me. It all worked a lot better 10 years ago. Seems my hands are not as flexible now.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Conn 34H Alto
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
Cerveny oval euphonium
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8thnote
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by 8thnote » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:22 pm

Any updates? I recently picked up an Olds S-22 (single F) but it was missing the lever. I haven’t been able to source a part and the local music store quoted me at $400 to make a new key. I'm not sure if that's reasonable or extortion. Any help would be appreciated.
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JohnL
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by JohnL » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:01 am

8thnote wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:22 pm
Any updates? I recently picked up an Olds S-22 (single F) but it was missing the lever. I haven’t been able to source a part and the local music store quoted me at $400 to make a new key. I'm not sure if that's reasonable or extortion. Any help would be appreciated.
Seems a bit steep. You might try contacting John Sandhagen (tromboneyard@yahoo.com ) here in SoCal and see what he would charge. Make sure you send him a some good pics of what you have.

A major consideration is whether they're talking about just fabricating a replacement lever or if they're thinking of replacing the whole thing with a modern linkage. The latter would require a new saddle and either modifying or replacing the stop plate on the valve, as well as a new lever.

The S-22 linkage is not the most comfortable in the world.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by ghmerrill » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:34 am

Also, don't restrict yourself to people who are primarily trombone technicians. The tuba guys often spend a LOT of time repairing/replacing/fabricating linkages for rotary valves. You might shoot Dan Schultz (http://thevillagetinker.com/) an email and ask him what he thinks. He's very responsive and can be helpful even if he ends up not doing the work. And he does work on trombones -- just not his major focus. He might even know where original replacement parts can be found. Sometimes these guys will have something like that in an old parts horn or in their parts bin.
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brassmedic
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by brassmedic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:31 pm

Did you try Allied? They list a "lever to link screw" part for the S22 in their catalog. Sounds like that should be what you're looking for.
hyperbolica
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by hyperbolica » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:07 pm

This project is finished. Custom levers were made, the main bell brace was moved, new valves installed. Thanks for all input.
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JohnL
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by JohnL » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:22 pm

brassmedic wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Did you try Allied? They list a "lever to link screw" part for the S22 in their catalog. Sounds like that should be what you're looking for.
There is a little bean-shaped link that connects the lever to the stop plate (remember, on later Olds rotors, there is a stop post on the back of the casing and the stop plate is attached to the spindle). It sounds like what Allied has is the screw that attaches the lever to the link.

Still worth checking with Allied, though.
brassmedic
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by brassmedic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Oh yeah I think you're right. I was reading it as lever to [link screw], but it makes more sense as [lever to link] screw.
hyperbolica
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Re: Source for Levers

Post by hyperbolica » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:20 pm

I got rid of the Olds valve. Replaced with valves from a Duo Gravis.
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