11C/7C question

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dukesboneman
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11C/7C question

Post by dukesboneman » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:51 pm

For centuries now I have played Bach Mount Vernon 7C`s on all my small bores. I love the sound and it lets me do what ever I need to do.
NoW........
I was on vacation for a week and got back today took out my Bach 12G and tried to get some practice time
and just giggles I popped in a Mount Vernon 11C.
Why would a smaller mouthpiece sound so much darker? I can feel the "smaller-ness" on my chops from the 7C but the tone quality is much darker
bimmerman
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by bimmerman » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Do you have a 12C lying around by chance, and/or a 6.5 AL?

Sam Burtis, among others, had a theory on TTF that Bach really only came up with two design philosophies that lasted on the trombone mouthpieces. The 11C/6.5AL style cup/throat and the 12C/7C style.

If you look at where the cup and the throat meet on the 11C/6.5, it's much more gradual and has smooth radii. On the 12C/7C, it's a more abrupt transition between cup and throat.

I'm super simplifying it but that's at least one explanation for the difference in sound and feel.
Pre59
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by Pre59 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:30 am

I definitely agree with the the 11C/6.5AL correlation. I've always liked the 11C but have found it to be too narrow for my chops. The Faxx 6.5 is the closest I've got to my ideal m/p, and I say that after 50 plus years of playing. The throat/backbore could be just an ickle bit narrower though..
Rusty
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by Rusty » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:22 am

Pre59 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:30 am
I definitely agree with the the 11C/6.5AL correlation. I've always liked the 11C but have found it to be too narrow for my chops. The Faxx 6.5 is the closest I've got to my ideal m/p, and I say that after 50 plus years of playing. The throat/backbore could be just an ickle bit narrower though..
You’ll likely find that a 6.5A will hit the spot...slightly tighter throat (and backbore?) makes this closer to a ‘bigger 11c’ for my money.

The Bob Reeves/Brassark 11c (based on a Bach NY 11c) is also worth a look...it’s got quite a wide diameter rim, probably close to a 6 3/4c or 7c...for me, much comfier than many other 11c versions
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dukesboneman
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by dukesboneman » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:41 am

I had one of the Brass Ark 11C`s for a while. It is about the rim size of a 6 1/2 or 6 3/4 definitely not an 11C.
I also found it to play very bright for me.
Pre59
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by Pre59 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:33 pm

Rusty wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:22 am

You’ll likely find that a 6.5A will hit the spot...slightly tighter throat (and backbore?) makes this closer to a ‘bigger 11c’ for my money.

The Bob Reeves/Brassark 11c (based on a Bach NY 11c) is also worth a look...it’s got quite a wide diameter rim, probably close to a 6 3/4c or 7c...for me, much comfier than many other 11c versions
I have the 6.5A on my radar but I'm done with buying m/p's untried. I recently bought a K+G T6B which is a fine piece for a larger 'bone, but not my current one.
conn88Hagmann
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by conn88Hagmann » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:53 am

I have some of all the mouthpieces above. I use a Elliott 101 rim on a 3G cup most of the time, so all these feels but small, but the 11C and 6.75 are superb for Alto!

My lad uses a 7C and has just done his grade 3. The shallow cup really helps him. Maybe time to move to a 7 though.
SirJohn
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by SirJohn » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:23 pm

Pre59 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:30 am
I definitely agree with the the 11C/6.5AL correlation. I've always liked the 11C but have found it to be too narrow for my chops. The Faxx 6.5 is the closest I've got to my ideal m/p, and I say that after 50 plus years of playing. The throat/backbore could be just an ickle bit narrower though..
Ever try a Conn 3? Measurements I've found are a 25.15 rim and a 6.35mm throat which puts it smaller than the 6.5al but larger than 7c/11c. Rim is on the flatter side though. We found one used when messing around in a store by chance so my son gave it a whirl on a King 3b and loved it. Decided to buy it since it was $8. Oddly it didn't work well on his Yamaha YSL-354. The Yamaha 48 worked better on that horn for him, but on the 3B, he liked the Conn 3 much better than the Yamaha 48 and the 6.5al. My son hasn't tried an 11c, yet, but finds the 12c does not provide nearly enough room for him.
Pre59
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by Pre59 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:43 am

Dukesboneman, Have you tried using a coin or such to get a better idea of the widths. I've always assumed that the the 11C IS wider than the 7C, it could be down to the rim profile, but the 11C has always played bigger and better for me.
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dukesboneman
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Re: 11C/7C question

Post by dukesboneman » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:47 am

I`ve tried a number of 11C`s over the years and always felt the same way. Must the the rim contour because I can /and have played a 12C with no problem (well, some adjusting)
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