TromboneChat

Hi y'all,

I am in search of a jazz trombone... Right now, I play a closed-wrap Xeno for all of the jazz bands and concert bands I am in, however, I have noticed that I am not able to get a powerful jazz sound on the Xeno. I usually play 1st in jazz bands, and I find it hard to play over the 2nd and 3rd players with a horn that has a darker sound. I have been told by many directors that if I want to play 1st, that I need to have a sound that rises above the rest of the band instead of blending in, and therefore I need to get a peashooter instead of always using my Xeno (which is an awesome horn, don't get me wrong). I am in high school, but I plan on playing professionally, so I am looking for a jazz trombone that could last for a while. I plan on going to the University of North Texas or the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music and focusing on big band work. (Or Julliard if I'm lucky!)

If anyone has advice on trombones that I could use to play lead in a big band or do work in a combo, that would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

I would assume you didn't start on the Xeno. Do you still have the horn you used before it? a King 606 or Yamaha 354 makes a really good lead horn, especially for High School or College.

If you traded your starter horn in, you can probably score a good used King 2B, 3B, Conn 4H, Conn 6H, Olds Recording, etc. for not too much money. I picked up a Martin Committee that was a really nice lead horn for $400 on Ebay.

There is a vintage 2B on the Cleveland Craigslist site for $500.

The dilemma seems to be that sure, you can get that lead sound on the xeno, but it happens at a volume that is way too loud for the band. Then the right lower volume sounds too dark, no edge. The edge for a smaller horn shows up at a lower volume. It conveys an illusion of volume, and it makes for very effective accenting of mf notes.

Thanks for the advice!

No, I didn't start on the Xeno, but I don't have my starter horn anymore. It was pretty terrible anyway.

I have been looking at the King 2B and 3B and the Conn 6H, but I don't love the Olds sound. Do you have a preference between any of those horns?

It's not what I like. It's what YOU like.

There are dozens of jazz horns showing up on our Classifieds all the time. Look for something that seems interesting. Some suggestions:

Bach 8, 12, 16
Benge 170
Conn 4H, 6H, 10H, 12H, 24H, 48H
Getzen 1050
Holton 65, 67, 69
King 2B, 2B+, 3B
Martin Imperial, Committee, Urbie Green
Olds Special, Super, Radio, Recording
Reynolds Argenta (and some others)
Yamaha 651, 653, 691, 693, 697

There are obviously more. If you must get new, consider a Wessex Tubas model

I was checking out a Yam 356G today in the LMS while my guitar was having a bit of work done on it. For someone whose main thing is a .547, it would be an ideal second horn, I think. .500/.525, trigger, 8” gold brass bell. Pretty versatile.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:05 pm I was checking out a Yam 356G today in the LMS while my guitar was having a bit of work done on it. For someone whose main thing is a .547, it would be an ideal second horn, I think. .500/.525, trigger, 8” gold brass bell. Pretty versatile.

Versatile yes, but still too diffuse and mellow a sound for lead imo. I’d say a 3b would be perfect coming from a bigger horn and will give you a very typical smallbore and lead sound with plenty of power

The Yamaha 354 is a good and cheap horn that plays a lot like a Conn 6h. It could due for a lead horn. To me that would be a better choice than a King 3b on first part. You find a used 354 in good condition pretty cheap. Bruce's list is good too. A lot of horns to try.

/Tom

Have you tried putting a shallower mouthpiece, preferably with smaller throat? The Schilke (or Yamaha) 51B or 48B should make the sound brighter and more penetrating, at least to some degree.

Yamaha ysl 200ad or 354 (they are the same thing). Thoses horns play great and are just about impossible to break.

TromboneCat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:28 pm Thanks for the advice!

No, I didn't start on the Xeno, but I don't have my starter horn anymore. It was pretty terrible anyway.

I have been looking at the King 2B and 3B and the Conn 6H, but I don't love the Olds sound. Do you have a preference between any of those horns?

I couldn't help but notice your comment about the "Olds sound". What exactly are you referring to? The Olds trombones made in L.A./Fullerton are some of the best sounding trombones ever made.

Selmer Bolero is an underrated jazz horn. Rob Stoneback used one playing lead. I use one with my wedding/events band and with the right mouthpiece, it's a screamer. Keep your eyes open and you're liable to find one for a good price.

I got lucky and found mine in a local music shop about 45 minutes from Philly. Hardly needed any work and I got a great deal on it.

How is this thread not several pages long by now?
T-Cat: Sounds like for what you have planned you definitely need a good jazz horn.
Bruce's list is awesome. Anything on that list would make a great jazz horn.
Also, your next horn does not have to be the last one you ever buy.
You can always find a gem for cheap on craigslist/swap meets/pawn shops, etc with a little patience.
If your partial to Yamaha, 354's are great horns (my first horn in Jr High was a 354S that I played into HS)
Or if budget provides, Yam 600 and 400 series straight tenors also very good.
Personally, for jazz, King 3B is hard to beat. One of my all time favorite horns.
If your school has decent lender horns, you could see about checking one of those out for jazz until you find your own. (My HS only had old Bundy's... )
Happy hunting!

Ha! We need to be asking him how much $$$ he wants to spend. That's what's going to narrow down the search.

Matt

TromboneCat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:28 pm Thanks for the advice!

No, I didn't start on the Xeno, but I don't have my starter horn anymore. It was pretty terrible anyway.

I have been looking at the King 2B and 3B and the Conn 6H, but I don't love the Olds sound. Do you have a preference between any of those horns?

Pm sent.

Below is a link to an article from Sam Burtis from a number of years ago.

Today there would be more Shires and Raths on the list, but the sentiment would be the same.
A tighter, brighter, more powerful sound helps lead a section, and that usually comes from usually a straight .500ish bore horn.
For decades I only had .547 and .500 horns, I'm working on expanding now, but that's for personal reasons, not the gigs I actually get.

For some previously mentioned stuff:
I'm personally not a fan of the Yamaha 3xx series 500/525 dual bore horns, and I have one.
It's just not a great horn for any band I play with, rock or jazz.

I have a few Olds too.
Fun, but very rarely played.

Find a great shop and try as many horns as you can.
You need to find out where your lip, breath, and mind sit.
And every horn plays differently, one 3b might be absolutely glorious and the next one, same year, total dog.

Bruce G. has a pretty good list above, there might be a few near standards not listed (Bach 36, Selmer Bolero, etc.) but it's a great starting point for part #s.

Yeah, I have personal opinions and can expand, but you need to make it fun for you.

Sam's old post:
http://trombone.org/articles/library/nyletters1.asp

Matt K / Neobri - there were some great posts from Sabutin and RolandBarber that didn't seem to make it into the archive, were they simply not picked up by a crawler?

Matt K can elaborate more, but yes, the bot didn't pick everything up.

Matt K / Neobri - there were some great posts from Sabutin and RolandBarber that didn't seem to make it into the archive, were they simply not picked up by a crawler?

Yeah, basically the method TTF used to store the posts was not particularly intuitive and it wasn't realized by the time that the site went down in its entirety. (I believe this is why the archive.org clone of the site is also incomplete.). But it looked like it was working because it got the classifieds section right 100% of the time, which was the reason that I built the bot in the firs tplace. If it comes up again, it's possible that it can be fixed but for the time being a lot of stuff was regrettably lost to the ether.