Benge 175F

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TimBrass
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Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:13 pm

All info and thoughts on this trombone are appreciated.
As I’m unable to find info....

Thanks for your input!
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BGuttman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:21 pm

These were made by King in the 1980s intended to be a more "orchestral" horn than the regular "B" series.

The 175 is Medium Bore (takes a standard shank mouthpiece) with an open wrap F-attachment.

100% Pro horn. Great general purpose instrument.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
hyperbolica
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by hyperbolica » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:26 pm

I had one and played it up against my Conn 79h. the 175 is very similar to the 79h, but even more rare. I would say it's maybe a little more agile - light on its feet - than the reference horn for 525 bore, the Bach 36b. The 36b is possibly more orchestral sounding, and the 175f is possibly more aimed at, say, concert band, chamber music(???), solos, or lighter playing.

The big things that distinguish the 175f (from a 79h or 36b)are:
1)The valve is probably better on the 175.
2)The wrap is an open wrap (from the point of view that it won't trap any water, other people who classify a wrap by its minimum bend radius may have a different opinion).
3)The bell on the 175f is gold brass.
4)Somewhat lighter than the 36b.
5)It's a King, so it's going to have the single radius crook, and sound possibly a little brighter than other similar horns.
6)I think (but don't remember clearly) that the 175 slide was narrower than the 79h or 36b.

I really liked the 175f that I had, but it was so similar to my 79h that I sold it, and kept the 79h. My 79h has a thin rose bell 7.75" diameter taken from a 1950s 78h, so it's a little different from a stock 79h (8" yellow bell).
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:09 am

Could anyone comment on the differences between the Benge 175F and a King3BF?

Thanks for all the input so far!
Last edited by TimBrass on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BGuttman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:15 am

Benge 175F is a true Medium Bore (0.525") while the 3B-F is a little smaller (0.508" bore).

3B-F has thumb over bell brace (a problem for some) while the 175F has a Conn-style trigger arrangement.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:21 am

Could you also comment on the differences in sound?
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BGuttman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:42 am

That's much tougher. The sound you get is a combination of the design of the horn and what it has endured for the past umpteen years.

In general I'd say a Benge 175 will sound a little more "symphonic" than a 3B-F. That said, either one works for a wide variety of conditions.
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by imsevimse » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:30 pm

The Benge is the best of King and Conn. The Benge 175f is a great .525 horn. The valve works just like a Conn, which I think is better than the King solution. The sound is closer to a King than a Conn.

If I compare all the .525-ish horns I have and make a list from most symphonic to least symphonic.

The first would be my Bach 36BO which blend really well with other larger horns like a Bach 42 or a Conn 88h. The Bach 36BO is followed by a dual bore .500/.530 Kanstul 760 and a dual bore .500/.525 Yamaha 356R. The Kanstul is Bach like and the Yamaha more Conn like (to me) Both plays bigger than you would think. After those I place the Elkhart Conn 79h and last the Benge 175f. The Benge would be the least symphonic .525-ish horn I have. It is a tad more symphonic than the King 3b which I would not count as a symphonic horn at all. It is a .508 horn that in my hands is to small to second a Bach 42 or a Conn 88h in a symphonic situation. All the others could due with the right mouthpiece.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am

Could use your advise 1 more time as I have 2 options left.

1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.

What would you buy?
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BGuttman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by BGuttman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:12 am

Either one will work. I think I might go for the 3B-F, all things being equal.

Again, condition trumps anything else. Try to play it if you can.
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by imsevimse » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:33 am

TimBrass wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am
Could use your advise 1 more time as I have 2 options left.

1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.

What would you buy?
King 3b/f because of the context.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:05 am

TimBrass wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 am
1. King 3BF with lacquer wear (1982) slide 9/10 750 Euro (875 USD)
2. Benge 175F with lacquer wear, slide 8.5/10 675 euro (800 USD)

The instrument will be mostly used in Pop / rock settings.
Yeah, I agree. For pop, I'd probably go with the 3bf, although overall I prefer the Benge. Better idea to play the horns, if you can.
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm

Almost ready to bite the bullet. Things changed a bit.

King 875 USD
Benge 700 USD (price drop)

I’m normally a euphonium player used to playing with a lot of air. Would the bore make a difference? .508 of the vs the .525 of the Benge? Which one of the 2 would have a higher selling price if I’d like to sell it of after a few years?
My experience on trombone brands is very limited. I consider myself a good euphonium player though. Best question would be: which of the 2 trombones would be best in the long run?

Just want to make sure I’m making the right desicion here....
Last edited by TimBrass on Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BGuttman
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by BGuttman » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 pm

All things being equal, the King will have a higher resale price.

You may find the Medium Bore Benge able to take more air than the smaller King. But it's a small difference. You may be well served to learn to play a smaller bore with less air. I usually refer to small bores as "finesse" horns and large bores as "muscle" horns.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by hyperbolica » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:01 pm

TimBrass wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm
Almost ready to bite the bullet. Things changed a bit.

King 875 USD
Benge 700 USD (price drop)

I’m normally a euphonium player used to playing with a lot of air. Would the bore make a difference? .508 of the vs the .525 of the Benge? Which one of the 2 would have a higher selling price if I’d like to sell it of after a few years?
My experience on trombone brands is very limited. I consider myself a good euphonium player though. Best question would be: which of the 2 trombones would be best in the long run?

Just want to make sure I’m making the right desicion here....

Someone else said the Benge was pretty bright. That wasn't my memory of the horn. My memory was that the Kanstul 760 was the brightest horn I've ever played, and I sold the one I bought as quickly as I could. I'd be very glad to play the Benge 175F in a brighter pops orchestral setting in the first chair, or in a big band on 3rd, or a concert band 1st or second, or anything but bass in a trombone choir/quartet. Don't buy a horn thinking of resale. Think of the value to you. You'll probably be able to sell a horn for whatever you pay for it unless you damage it or it was overpriced to begin with (or you bought it from a shop with a lot of overhead like Dillons).

If you're used to blowing a lot of air, the .525 may be easier to get used to. As Bruce said, it's a small difference, but noticeable if you're not used to smaller horns. Resist the urge to think of a small bore horn as being "stuffy". Just think that you can conserve air, and still play with a full sound.
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by Davidus1 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:41 pm

Coming from tuba to trombone you have to adapt to the change. I don't blow the same on trombone as I do tuba or Euphonium. That won't work. There is a difference in the approach and that takes adjustment. I've played on some .485 bore horns that were free blowing.
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by imsevimse » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:01 pm
Someone else said the Benge was pretty bright. That wasn't my memory of the horn. My memory was that the Kanstul 760 was the brightest horn I've ever played, and I sold the one I bought as quickly as I could.
I've learned here that bright is a negative word. I used to say I like my sound to be bright but I do think it is something I should stop saying. I guess it is a language barrier. I should probably say I want my sound to be full of colours. That's easier to understand. I'm guessing what you mean when you are talking about a bright sound is a very shallow sound, a sound with some sort of unbalance. A sound where the higher overtones dominates, maybe even a sharp sound? If this is the description of a bright sound then that's an unpleasant sound. I hereby declare I will never ever say I want a bright sound :good:

Anyway. I think I can make that sort of sound on any trombone if I want to. I can also change the sound to something more balanced if I want to. I have discovered that all this has to do with the sound I have in mind. If I imagine my sound to be wide and colorful and I blow my trombone with a relaxed blow (flow) and a focused embouchure (not to open) then I get a rich and colorful sound. No trombone sound bright if I do not play it bright.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:27 am

Perhaps some of you would like to see the King and Benge options:
https://timbrass.stackstorage.com/s/ANqhpeMGFLS8hhp

My thoughts now:
Get the cheaper benge and have it refinished (costs 175 Euro) (pic. of the finish in link)
Why the benge:
- the 0.525 bore (mostly playing a large bore E3 Adams Euphonium)
- I've been informed that the benge is bit less "bright" that probably matches my concept of sound better. (again comming from euphonium)
- You don't see a benge 175F so often, so that's kinda cool.

Some background info on me:
Brittish style brass band player
Playing on a Adams 0.6 E3 SS bell
solid range over 4 1/2 octaves

Again, feel free to give me your thoughts.

You've all been a great help so far,....
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Vegastokc
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by Vegastokc » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:23 am

Pics look good.
Sell a kidney and buy them both. :lol:
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TimBrass
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Re: Benge 175F

Post by TimBrass » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:42 am

For those intrested:

Eventually got the Benge 175F. Laquer will be stripped and the instrument wil be re-finished with an antique or vintage look.

Pics:
https://timbrass.stackstorage.com/s/57JsnudtXMyV87X

Trombone is now de-laquered and almost ready for the "new" finish.
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