Conn 6h

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skaskaster
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Conn 6h

Post by skaskaster » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:57 am

Any thoughts about this instrument as a horn for jazz/commercial/ska music? I heard Al Grey played one of those, before moving to King. And whats the difference between regular 6h and the "Victor" one? Which one is better?
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BGuttman
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by BGuttman » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:07 pm

The 6H was named Victor at some point. The model is discontinued; replaced by the 100H.
The 6H was a great jazz horn. Lots of people still use them. As with all older horns, check condition carefully before putting down your money.
Bruce Guttman
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chromebone
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by chromebone » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:11 pm

If you want to hear the definitive 6H sound, just listen to Frank Rosolino.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by LeTromboniste » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:26 pm

chromebone wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:11 pm
If you want to hear the definitive 6H sound, just listen to Frank Rosolino.
And I was there, naively thinking it was just the definitive Frank Rosolino sound.... :shuffle:
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Arrowhead
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Arrowhead » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:24 am

skaskaster wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:57 am
Any thoughts about this instrument as a horn for jazz/commercial/ska music? I heard Al Grey played one of those, before moving to King. And whats the difference between regular 6h and the "Victor" one? Which one is better?
A lot of the "early" notable jazz trombonists played on the 6H. They are very good jazz horns, and just fine for commercial/ska, etc.. They have a nice meaty sound; verticalness, and feel easy to play.
I have one with modified sleeves, which reduces the weight.
skaskaster
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by skaskaster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:01 am

Ok, so can anyone help me to identify the year when my trombone was made? Just recieved the "Victor" one and it say GH 9700XX on the slide, and there is no S/N on the bell part.
The serial number chart on the conn-selmer couldn't help me

UPD.
Never mind, just found the info about Conn S/N :good:
"CODE SYSTEM

First character (letter) indicates decade, "G" for 1970's, "H" for 1980's.
etc.

Second character (letter) indicates month of year, "A" for January, "B" for
February, etc.

Third character (number) indicates year of decade reading directly.

Fourth character (number) indicates instrument group as follows:

1- Cornet
2-Trumpet
3-Alto
4-French Horn
5-Mellophone
6-Valve Trombone
7-Slide Trombone
8-Baritone-Euphonium
9-Tuba
0-Sousaphone"
Davidus1
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Davidus1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:18 pm

chromebone wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:11 pm
If you want to hear the definitive 6H sound, just listen to Frank Rosolino.
+1 Rosolino is one of my favorites and I love listening to him. Used a 6H!
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Bonephilly
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Bonephilly » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:22 pm

A good 6h can be hard to find. I prefer the ones from the late 50’s.
Oslide
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Oslide » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:47 pm

chromebone wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:11 pm
If you want to hear the definitive 6H sound, just listen to Frank Rosolino.
On the old forum there was a thread discussing that Rosolino played a custom Olds
for a while...
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Oslide » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:56 pm

E.g. here:
Oslide
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Oslide » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:13 pm

I don‘t mean the short mentioning in the „joining the Olds crowd“ thread. It was rather detailed, written mostly by Ben Griffin but I don‘t seem to find it/him anymore.
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by havard » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:40 pm

i own a 65 6h and a Yamaha 891z . the Yamaha has easier respons but a clearly prefer the 6h sound . you can create any sound you want on it .

Excactly what sam Burtis describe in the otj :

"sabutin:
6Hs and other 6H-like horns are a little...drier...sounding than equivalent Kings and Bachs. A little more austere. Strict. Rigorous. I mean that in a good way. Like wines, trombone sounds can have some amount of sweetness...I hear that in King sounds. They can also be very rich...Bach sounds.

Or...they can simply be there. Like Conns.

I went to a thesuarus and searched the words "austere", "strict" and "rigorous".

Here are some of the results that seem to fit:

ascetic, earnest, exacting, formal, hard, inexorable, serious, stringent, unrelenting, exacting, firm, no-nonsense, scrupulous, straight, stringent, tough, accurate, correct, definite, exacting, meticulous, precise, rugged, scrupulous, stern, uncompromising

Like dat.

6Hs do not give easily to the casual listener. No emotional "ooohs" and "aaahs" result from their basic timbre. (Unless of course one is a trombonist and is interested in sound of a certain kind.) Dorsey's "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" on a 6H rather than on a King? Maybe not quite so popular. Watrous's ballad and vibrato/mic approach on a 6H rather than on a Bach? Not quite so...gooey. J. J.'s basic (and gorgeous) sound on a 3B? Maybe not quite so pleasing in some respects.

Like dat, too.

I love 'em, myself. That hardcore Conn sound, through just about all sizes. All of my Shires horns? Just attempts at improving some aspects of great Conns.

But then, for me personally...that list of synonyms plus the words "austere", "strict" and "rigorous"?

ascetic, earnest, exacting, formal, hard, inexorable, serious, stringent, unrelenting, exacting, firm, no-nonsense, scrupulous, straight, stringent, tough, accurate, correct, definite, exacting, meticulous, precise, rugged, scrupulous, stern, uncompromising

Sounds suspiciously like a self-portrait.

On my good days.

Yup.

So it goes.

We are what we eat? (Or is it "We eat what we are?" Hmmmmmmm...)

Whatever.

We play what we are, too.

Yup.

.S. I wold like to add to this that Conn small bores seem much more ..."American" in sound to me. Old American. Gazebo bands American. Sousa American. Early Teagarden and Dorsey American. Swing era American. Great Depression American. Ahhhh...you know. When America was young and struggling upward? Yup. That "America." Dunno why...Kings have been around just as long. Something about the backbone of the sound, I guess.

I have been collecting William Gedney photos recently.

Here's one of his grandfather.

Looks like my grandfather.

That America.

Bet on it.
skaskaster
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by skaskaster » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:44 pm

Thanks for all the answers!
So after 2 months of playing on my 6h I've picked up my friend's king 3b today which he bought recently. The king is the gold brass one from the early 80's and mine is from 1979 with no lacquer. And after 10 minutes of playing I decided that the 6h sound is more suitable for me. As it was said above the sound is more "strict" in a good way. It can be loud without "cracking" so I can shout with passion lol. Its strange for me now that kings 2b/3b were more popular than conns.
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Grah
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Grah » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:00 pm

At one time in the 1950s the 6H was used by the whole of the Stan Kenton trombone section. At this time Conn said that it was used and preferred by many of the nation's top professionals in TV and radio. They also said that "this fine trombone has a specially designed modified large straight bore that's ideal for all types of playing". I have read recently that this version of the 6H, which is the same as mine, has famous "Airfloat" slides with long slide bearing for fast, positive action and smoother 6th or 7th positions. I was told by Bill Lewington in London, where I purchased mine, that the special slide length and the tuning was designed to enable normal tuning away from 1st position, so that the Kenton players could use vibrato in 1st position. Certainly that might have been true for the soloists but the Kenton band trombonists did not use vibrato when playing as a section.
Grah

(Transcribing jazz solos is fraught with difficulties because exact rhythmic notation is well-nigh impossible. So listen carefully because it's the only way to learn how to play jazz trombone so that we can return to the Golden Age.) 8-)
Driswood
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Driswood » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:02 am

Bonephilly wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:22 pm
A good 6h can be hard to find. I prefer the ones from the late 50’s.
I have a 1957 6H that used to belong to Les Benedict. Killer horn!!
Jerry Walker

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1957 Conn 6H
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timbone
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by timbone » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:36 am

Wayne Henderson!
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Arrowhead
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Arrowhead » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:46 pm

skaskaster wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:44 pm
Its strange for me now that kings 2b/3b were more popular than conns.
In my opinion, the golden era of the King trombones was in the 50's/early 60's~ the HN White era. I don't think they really compare to the King trombones that later came out, especially the version thats labeled 2102, 2103, etc....or even the modern day version.
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Driswood » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:29 pm

Arrowhead wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:46 pm
skaskaster wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:44 pm
Its strange for me now that kings 2b/3b were more popular than conns.
In my opinion, the golden era of the King trombones was in the 50's/early 60's~ the HN White era. I don't think they really compare to the King trombones that later came out, especially the version thats labeled 2102, 2103, etc....or even the modern day version.
I played a King Silvertone/2B combo that was on loan from a friend. 1961 2B slide, on a 1941 Silvertone bell. Best horn I EVER played!!! Even better than my 57 6H.
Jerry Walker

Happily Retired :good:

1957 Conn 6H
Yamaha YSL354
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bellend
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by bellend » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:23 am

Best 6H I ever played was actually one made in Mexico ???? and was actually a 5H? or 6HlT ? just went and went but sadly was not for sale.

Having seen many Elkhart era 6H's come through in the repair shop it was interesting that the thickness of the bells can vary a lot unlike 8H's which were all absolutely the same. For me the thinners ones seemed better but I would say try as many as you can.

BellEnd
WillydeWoofer
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by WillydeWoofer » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:42 pm

I once possessed 7 6H's. Bought for my self and a few pro friends. They were all from 1955 until 1965.
Finally I kept four of them. Each time I could buy one in a better shape.
After a few years I sold two of them. So I play on two these days: an ugly one and one like new.
Both are my favourites. I tried a lot of brands new and second hand. But for me the 6H is perfect.

Kind regards, Will
SurreyBone
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by SurreyBone » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:08 am

Thanks Skaskaster for the post decyphering the 6H serial number - I too have a GH 97XXXX Conn 6H I bought on ebay I now know it was made in Agust 1979, thanks! On my horn most of the lacquer has worn, so it looks down at heel.......but plays beautifully!

I am now looking for a second horn to play lead in a big band as a spare/standby and am thinking of a Coprion Bell horn, as reading the reviews they have great projection for playing lead.

Looking at the model numbers a 10H is identical to the 6H apart from the bell material (but there are none that I can find for sale) and there are a number of 18H's out there at very reasonable prices - but I thought the Director line of instruments was Conn's student models. There are also some 12H's which according to the Conn Loyalist Model List both the 12H and 18H have a 2 1/2 bore whereas the 6H and 10H have a 3 bore.

Could someone help me with the characteristics of each so that I can make a decision on what to buy as in the age of the internet you can't try before you buy.

Many Thanks
hyperbolica
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:58 am

SurreyBone wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:08 am

Could someone help me with the characteristics of each so that I can make a decision on what to buy as in the age of the internet you can't try before you buy.

Many Thanks
I'm not sure I'd use a 10h for lead. Solos yes. I owned one for a number of years, and loved it, but when it came down to it, I never played it on gigs. It starts out dark and creamy, but when you lean into it, it gets very bright. Described in some of the model ID sites as "Uncle Cope, the manic depressive relative of the 6h". I can kind of see where they're coming from.

The 10h comes and goes in fads. Sometimes you can find a lot of them for sale, and sometimes not. Sometimes they command a high price, and sometimes not.

18h is a student horn, and you might have to be careful about the era of the horn, because I think the model number has different characteristics in different eras. 12h is the pro version of the 18h, and is probably the best of the 3, and definitely more plentiful than the 10h.

If you want something with projection, get a 48h, you'll never want anything else. That's the loudest horn Ive ever played. I've had several. The older ones are said to be coprion with nickel plate. These are great horns, especially for playing outside, marching, anywhere you need some extra punch. Plus, they have some nice features like grip gussets and lightweight slide. If you like the 6h but you need more projection, the 48h is the thing. 48h is plentiful, but they tend to go for a little more money than a 6h.
SurreyBone
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by SurreyBone » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:59 am

Thanks hyperbolica!
JohntheTheologian
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by JohntheTheologian » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:04 pm

I understand that many guys paired 48H slides with 6H bells. I own a 48H and love the LW slide. I owned a 6h years ago, but I can't remember a lot about it because I was a young player. I would like to try a 10H bell with my 48H slide some time, but the recent ones I've seen seemed to be in the pricey phase.
Rusty
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by Rusty » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:22 am

I was also going to ask about the 6h vs 48h...what’s the reason the 6h is far more popular and common given the 48h was the ‘top of the line’ horn?
hyperbolica
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by hyperbolica » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:17 am

I imagine the popularity came down to 2 things - price and the 48h being kind of a niche horn, while the 6h is more of an all purpose instrument. Plus the 6h was produced for more years than the 48h. Given the choice, I'd probably pick a 48h, although I think most people would pick the 6h. Both are really great horns in their best examples.

My 10h had a wide crook slide, which I liked. I traded my 10h and a 48h for a nearly new Yamaha 891z, also a really wonderful horn. But the small bore I wound up keeping was a Shires Michael Davis Plus (509 bore). I've got horns from several makers, and Shires isn't necessarily my favorite, but the MD+ is a great horn, and can change personality with a leadpipe.
txtimmy
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by txtimmy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:32 am

New to the forum, but I would also put out there that the 48H is a great alternative if you see it out there and are looking for a small bore or a jazz horn. It was very amenable to playing concert band, and orchestral music when I needed too. I really like the sound for the interior parts or jazz solos as well. For me it doesn't have the cut I want for the lead part, but that is why I own a King 2B. I think both the 6H and 48H fit in a middle ground between the King 2B and 3B.
imsevimse
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Re: Conn 6h

Post by imsevimse » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:47 am

6h's are very different over the years. I have three of them. One Victor from the 90ies, one "Three Marching Men" from the 50ies and one silver plated from the 30ies with 7.5" bell. The newer were 8". They play very differently and the best is the one from the 50ies but I happen to have a King 2b slide with Conn tenon and when I match this King slide with the oldest one from the 30ies it becomes the best horn no question about it, not at all close to the original that uses a very heavy slide.

/Tom
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