New Horn: Monke F contra

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Burgerbob
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New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by Burgerbob » Thu May 10, 2018 4:46 pm

I recently got a contra!

It's a really beaufitul '60s German instrument in F/D/BBb/AAb.

Check out the video to see me hack away at it.

Anyone else ever see any Monke trombones? Any contras? I know they have made trumpets for a long time but I can't find any mention of their low brass.

This particular instrument is very good and plays as well as most of the contras I have taken a blow on.


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cozzagiorgi
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by cozzagiorgi » Thu May 10, 2018 10:57 pm

Really cool!
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by Basbasun » Fri May 11, 2018 8:32 am

Sound realy good! Happy blowing!
hornbuilder
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by hornbuilder » Tue May 15, 2018 8:47 am

I came very close to buying a Monke contra back in the mid 80's. Ended up not being able to get the scratch together.
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by marccromme » Tue May 15, 2018 4:08 pm

Congrats with this nice Monke!
hornbuilder
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by hornbuilder » Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 pm

I have to be picky and correct your pronunciation. You must say the "e" on the end of the name, as "er" (with a very short "r" sound) Just like Porsche is not "Porsh", Monke is not Monk.
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by Burgerbob » Tue May 15, 2018 7:27 pm

I should have known that!
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by paulyg » Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 pm

Gives a whole new meaning to Monke-ing around...
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shider
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by shider » Fri May 18, 2018 3:10 am

German guy here :hi:
Please let me provide some insight to my native language:
paulyg wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 pm
Gives a whole new meaning to Monke-ing around...
The "e" at the end of Monke, or Porsche (Porsche originates from a town only about 100km away from where i live) is not pronounced like the "e" in the word "monkey".
hornbuilder wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 pm
I have to be picky and correct your pronunciation. You must say the "e" on the end of the name, as "er" (with a very short "r" sound) Just like Porsche is not "Porsh", Monke is not Monk.
And i don't see where there would be an "r"-sound (even very short). In german these words end with a vowel.

It's actually really hard to find an american equivalent because.. well, it's a different language and we use different sounds :idk: for example we have letters like "ä", "ö", "ü" to express special sounds and therefore don't need to assign these sounds to other letters in our alphabet.. But i'm getting off topic :biggrin:

I'll try to give a few examples:

-It's like the e-part in "Sydney" before the "y"-sound starts (at least in my way to pronounce it there is an "e" in there
-it's like the "e" at the beginning of "encompassing" or "enrichment"
-like the "e" at the beginnings of "energy" or "elevator", but less nasally sounding

The longer i sat in front of this post the more i realised, that there might simply be no real equivalent to pronounce it like a german would by giving you examples of english words :weep:
If you want so hear german pronounciation of the correct "e" for the ends of these words i would advise you to go to leo.org, type in "Energie" and let it read it out to you in german. The first written "e" would be the one to focus on. :good: (the second one is inaudible and builds a composite sound with the "i" like in englisch)

So... a lot of words for a simple message: i can't fool an american my native language is english.. You probably won't be able to do the same to a german. And i don't feel there should be any shame in that ;)
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:46 pm
Anyone else ever see any Monke trombones? Any contras? I know they have made trumpets for a long time but I can't find any mention of their low brass.
And to directly respond to your question:
In germany their trumpets (and flugelhorns with rotors) pop up regulary on eBay and other sites, but only once in a while one will see something different than high brass instruments. I have seen Tenorhorns (the continental european ones with oval shape) and a few straight tenor trombones, even some with an F Valve. But i've never come across anything other than that.

After a quick look around the german web i discovered, that the company "Josef Monke" is still in operation! But nowadays they only sell trumpets with rotary valves. And there seems the company/shop has changed owners in 1997 where ownership changed from Josef Monkes Daughter to an instrument builder who was employed there before and who chose to keep the name and is running the shop to this day.
Also there is mention of Wilhelm Monke, the son of Josef Monke who stamped his name on a few instruments but is seen as a bit of a strange guy. He learned the craft from his father, but left the shop to open up his own. There he outsourced instrument manufacturing (basically an early form of the stencil horns today) and stamped them with his own name. But seemingly he also built some by himself as he knew the craft. Some people still play trumpets from Wilhelm and praise them as the best they ever played, some say the are crap :idk: according to the split practice of stamping others horns and building his own this at least makes some sense :lol:
But Josef Monke is still regarded a top notch manufacturer and the vintage instruments are held in high regards!
Edit: he also must have produced anything from high brass down to the tuba, but that days seem long gone and i guess the new owners after Josefs death (in 1965) didn't continue that.

From seeing your YouTube content i thought you might appreciate this information on the company!
And congratulations on the Kontrabassposaune!
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MoominDave
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by MoominDave » Fri May 18, 2018 3:36 am

shider wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:10 am
hornbuilder wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 pm
I have to be picky and correct your pronunciation. You must say the "e" on the end of the name, as "er" (with a very short "r" sound) Just like Porsche is not "Porsh", Monke is not Monk.
And i don't see where there would be an "r"-sound (even very short). In german these words end with a vowel.
I think what Matt's saying is that in non-rhotic English language accents (i.e. in these situations the 'r' doesn't get pronounced), giving someone "Porscher" results in the correct German pronunciation for the final vowel. There is no 'r' sound produced. However, for someone with a rhotic accent, it would produce a wrong result.
shider
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by shider » Fri May 18, 2018 4:02 am

MoominDave wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:36 am
I think what Matt's saying is that in non-rhotic English language accents (i.e. in these situations the 'r' doesn't get pronounced), giving someone "Porscher" results in the correct German pronunciation for the final vowel. There is no 'r' sound produced. However, for someone with a rhotic accent, it would produce a wrong result.
Had to google what "rhotic" means, but i think i get it now!
Thanks for that!
It would for sure be closer to true german pronunciation and a lot better than Porsh :biggrin:
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by hornbuilder » Fri May 18, 2018 7:58 am

Thanks Dave, you're correct. It is tricky to try and get the correct inflection in regards pronunciation, especially when there is no aural cue available! I was trying to give an example that an English speaking American would recognise, and be able to employ. Maybe describing it as a short "eh" could have worked better? The problem is there are very few words in English (at least that I can think of, off the top of my head) that have the short type of vowel, without a following consonant, as is found in German. Then you have to take someone's accent into consideration, too. There are many words that I pronounce, as an Australian, very differently to my American wife!
M
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by timothy42b » Fri May 18, 2018 8:45 am

I could be wrong, but my impression from living in Germany several years is that that ending vowel syllable should be pronounced as what American English calls a schwah, represented by an upside down e. (I don't know how to type that character.)
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by StevenC » Fri May 18, 2018 11:31 am

ə. There are a few ways to do it, including copy and paste.
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by StevenC » Fri May 18, 2018 11:31 am

ə. There are a few ways to do it, including copy and paste.
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Burgerbob
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by Burgerbob » Fri May 18, 2018 11:37 am

Thanks for the information, Shider! I had found the Monke website, but there isn't a lot of information there. I did send them an email but no response as of yet.

As for the vowel sound at the end of Monke, I am aware of how to pronounce it... It doesn't show, but I do have a few years of German training!
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Re: New Horn: Monke F contra

Post by imsevimse » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:32 am

shider wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:10 am
German guy here :hi:
Please let me provide some insight to my native language:
paulyg wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 pm
Gives a whole new meaning to Monke-ing around...


The "e" at the end of Monke, or Porsche (Porsche originates from a town only about 100km away from where i live) is not pronounced like the "e" in the word "monkey".
hornbuilder wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 pm
I have to be picky and correct your pronunciation. You must say the "e" on the end of the name, as "er" (with a very short "r" sound) Just like Porsche is not "Porsh", Monke is not Monk.
And i don't see where there would be an "r"-sound (even very short). In german these words end with a vowel.

It's actually really hard to find an american equivalent because.. well, it's a different language and we use different sounds :idk: for example we have letters like "ä", "ö", "ü" to express special sounds and therefore don't need to assign these sounds to other letters in our alphabet.. But i'm getting off topic :biggrin:

I'll try to give a few examples:

-It's like the e-part in "Sydney" before the "y"-sound starts (at least in my way to pronounce it there is an "e" in there
-it's like the "e" at the beginning of "encompassing" or "enrichment"
-like the "e" at the beginnings of "energy" or "elevator", but less nasally sounding

The longer i sat in front of this post the more i realised, that there might simply be no real equivalent to pronounce it like a german would by giving you examples of english words :weep:
If you want so hear german pronounciation of the correct "e" for the ends of these words i would advise you to go to leo.org, type in "Energie" and let it read it out to you in german. The first written "e" would be the one to focus on. :good: (the second one is inaudible and builds a composite sound with the "i" like in englisch)

So... a lot of words for a simple message: i can't fool an american my native language is english.. You probably won't be able to do the same to a german. And i don't feel there should be any shame in that ;)
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:46 pm
Anyone else ever see any Monke trombones? Any contras? I know they have made trumpets for a long time but I can't find any mention of their low brass.
And to directly respond to your question:
In germany their trumpets (and flugelhorns with rotors) pop up regulary on eBay and other sites, but only once in a while one will see something different than high brass instruments. I have seen Tenorhorns (the continental european ones with oval shape) and a few straight tenor trombones, even some with an F Valve. But i've never come across anything other than that.

After a quick look around the german web i discovered, that the company "Josef Monke" is still in operation! But nowadays they only sell trumpets with rotary valves. And there seems the company/shop has changed owners in 1997 where ownership changed from Josef Monkes Daughter to an instrument builder who was employed there before and who chose to keep the name and is running the shop to this day.
Also there is mention of Wilhelm Monke, the son of Josef Monke who stamped his name on a few instruments but is seen as a bit of a strange guy. He learned the craft from his father, but left the shop to open up his own. There he outsourced instrument manufacturing (basically an early form of the stencil horns today) and stamped them with his own name. But seemingly he also built some by himself as he knew the craft. Some people still play trumpets from Wilhelm and praise them as the best they ever played, some say the are crap :idk: according to the split practice of stamping others horns and building his own this at least makes some sense :lol:
But Josef Monke is still regarded a top notch manufacturer and the vintage instruments are held in high regards!
Edit: he also must have produced anything from high brass down to the tuba, but that days seem long gone and i guess the new owners after Josefs death (in 1965) didn't continue that.

From seeing your YouTube content i thought you might appreciate this information on the company!
And congratulations on the Kontrabassposaune!
Hello!
Thank you paulyg for the very informative details of the Monke name and bussiness. As a Swede who have studied German for five years I have no problem to pronance the name Monke. Swedish and German have a lot in common.

I have googled the Monke business and probably found the same source you found (in German) but your explanation confirms that I got it right when I read that. I've become interested in the Monke name as I stumbled over a sackbut by Wihelm Monke, or stamped by him. It is not a bad instrument at all, but obviously not an authentic copy of an old instrument. I would say it is an improved version of a barock sackbut that sound small like an old instrument and is easy to play. It also has an f-valve which the original instruments did not have. I think it even has a leadpipe, also a new thing. So this instrument could be looked upon as an ultra small bore tenor or a modern sackbut on steroids :twisted:

It sounds small and old and plays well. I guess Wilhelm Monke used his contacts to make a special order for this modern designed sackbut. I have tried a few sackbuts before but they did not click with me but this one is actually one I can make music on right away. It is not authentic but still I think it fits an old sackbut musical context. It also has a tunngslide to be able to tube anything in between 442 to at least 430, but not long enough for 415.

What made me decide to buy this horn was it's playability, and just to have a sackbut to learn. I sit here and wait for my first gig now 😁

To Burger
"Anyone else ever see any Monke trombones? Any contras? I know they have made trumpets for a long time but I can't find any mention of their low brass. "

Yes I have heard of Monke before but didn't know about the contras and nothing about his son Wilhelm Monke.

You sound great on the contra by the way😉 may I ask how much you paid?

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
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