Flat TR181

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PhilipEdCarlson
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Flat TR181

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:17 pm

:???: Why is my horn kinda flat?

This TR181 is flat I all partials with both slides all the way in. No evidence of any major work or mods (other than the Greenhoe thumbrest I had added last week).
Philip Carlson
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:57 pm

What size mouthpiece are you using? How about trying a smaller mouthpiece?

Is it flat for somebody else?

Are you thinking flat? How about trying to raise the pitch?

Note: many people seem to need to cut tuning slides on bass trombones, and it's entirely possible that yours needs to be cut as well. But try other things before you resort to surgery.
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PhilipEdCarlson
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:25 pm

Are you thinking flat?
Never thought of it as flat, but my thinking clearly isn't sharp! :shuffle:

116LBK8
Similar results with 116LBI8, 60 & 58
My instructor pointed it out, tried it, and is puzzled by it. Both of us can bend it sharp. Working with a tuner i can lip it up.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:34 pm

Any chance the valves or water key are leaking?
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PhilipEdCarlson
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:22 pm

tbathras wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:34 pm
Any chance the valves or water key are leaking?
Will check tomorrow!
Philip Carlson
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Neo Bri » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:41 pm

PhilipEdCarlson wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:22 pm
tbathras wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:34 pm
Any chance the valves or water key are leaking?
Will check tomorrow!
Could that really knock it down 50 cents consistently throughout the horn?
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:09 am

Neo Bri wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:41 pm

Could that really knock it down 50 cents consistently throughout the horn?
It could be just a piece of the puzzle. I know that leaks make slots wider, so it's potentially easier to lip things and he mentioned it could be lipped into tune.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:12 am

Another thought - is there a chance the hand slide is not the stock? I know some folks swap out slides on the 'newer' 181's, I did when I had one. Like if it's a Bach slide, it would be longer, I believe.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Neo Bri » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:26 am

tbathras wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:12 am
Another thought - is there a chance the hand slide is not the stock? I know some folks swap out slides on the 'newer' 181's, I did when I had one. Like if it's a Bach slide, it would be longer, I believe.
That's a very interesting idea. Could be, especially if the history of the horn is unknown.

I'd suggest putting some reasonably heavy valve oil on to make sure they're sealing alright and then go from there.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:40 am

Neo Bri wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:26 am
I'd suggest putting some reasonably heavy valve oil on to make sure they're sealing alright and then go from there.
One suggestion I got from Chuck McAlexander at the Brasslab was if you wanted to test the seal of the valves and see if a tighter seal worked better, to pop them open and use a little tuning slide grease. Obviously, you can't really use the valves that way, but, it will tell you how the horn plays with completely sealed valves and it's easy to undo.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Neo Bri » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 am

Pardon my ignorance - how do you easily undo it? flush with water?
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:57 am

Neo Bri wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 am
Pardon my ignorance - how do you easily undo it? flush with water?
Water probably wouldn't work. All you need is a thin coat on the cores, then, once you're done testing, get a rag and wipe the casing and cores down, then put your regular oil on the cores and casing and wipe them down with a clean rag, and do that about twice to make sure you get it all. Thinner oils dissolve thicker pretty easily, and the bulk comes off pretty well with just that first dry cloth.

The context of my conversation with him was around seeing if I should get my valve cores replated and re-honed and he mentioned this as a way to "test the waters" without committing.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:34 pm

I'll check the serial numbers
worried about disassembling the rotors
Philip Carlson
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by BGuttman » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:46 pm

PhilipEdCarlson wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:34 pm
I'll check the serial numbers
worried about disassembling the rotors
Then don't disassemble the rotors. You can easily put a heavier oil down the tubing to "seal it up" and then flush it back out with a light oil like valve oil.

Osmun Brass has a pressure tester and I'm sure other repair shops may also have one. Often used to find leaky valves.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:43 pm

The slide and bell braces match.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by tbathras » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Any dents, particularly in the tuning slide or end crook of the hand slide? Dents in those locations can have negative affects on intonation.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Specialk3700 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:34 pm

I also have a tr181. I tend to play pretty flat on it as well. In tune for me is about a 1/8 inch out on the main. I wouldn't be surprised if the instrument is to long.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by chrisfsi » Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 am

I have a 181, and the D just above middle C is definitely flat. All other closed positions are fine, it's just that one that's an issue. Anyone any ideas why that might be? I'm using a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. I can usually just about get it in tune tightening my lips, but I'm also using D in 4th more than I used to!

I first had a 181 in 1978 which I sadly had to sell, and I don't remember it being an issue with that one.

TIA.. Chris
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Backbone » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 pm

My 181 played flat. Long tones with a tuner fixed the problem and my tone and response improved as well.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Tooloud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:25 am

chrisfsi wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 am
I have a 181, and the D just above middle C is definitely flat. All other closed positions are fine, it's just that one that's an issue. Anyone any ideas why that might be? I'm using a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. I can usually just about get it in tune tightening my lips, but I'm also using D in 4th more than I used to!

I first had a 181 in 1978 which I sadly had to sell, and I don't remember it being an issue with that one.

TIA.. Chris
That is just physics. This partial is flat on all B-Instruments referring to the tempered tuning.
And the tone on this is 'hollow'. On the French Horn this partial isn't used except on fast runs, where the tuning is less important than the quick fingering.

On trombone the D in first position is not useable, I always play this in fourth position!

So everything is just fine.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Specialk3700 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:13 am

Tooloud wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:25 am
chrisfsi wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 am
I have a 181, and the D just above middle C is definitely flat. All other closed positions are fine, it's just that one that's an issue. Anyone any ideas why that might be? I'm using a Bach 1 1/2G mouthpiece. I can usually just about get it in tune tightening my lips, but I'm also using D in 4th more than I used to!

I first had a 181 in 1978 which I sadly had to sell, and I don't remember it being an issue with that one.

TIA.. Chris
That is just physics. This partial is flat on all B-Instruments referring to the tempered tuning.
And the tone on this is 'hollow'. On the French Horn this partial isn't used except on fast runs, where the tuning is less important than the quick fingering.

On trombone the D in first position is not useable, I always play this in fourth position!

So everything is just fine.
That's odd. Every horn I've played including when I had my tr181 D above the staff in first is sharp and the notes start to become flat with the bflat in 5th.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Tooloud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am

Well: THAT is really odd!!

You have the world's largest tuning slide in your right hand. So, a fifth position can never be flat by itself.

I'm playing the trombone for thirtyfive years now, and a sharp d in closed position never occurred to me - so far...
But, who am I and what do I know?
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by blast » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:07 am

Tooloud wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am
Well: THAT is really odd!!

You have the world's largest tuning slide in your right hand. So, a fifth position can never be flat by itself.

I'm playing the trombone for thirtyfive years now, and a sharp d in closed position never occurred to me - so far...
But, who am I and what do I know?
I have several trombones with a sharp D in first position... and the F above is also often a bit sharp. More modern instruments mostly....

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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Specialk3700 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:33 am

Tooloud wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am
Well: THAT is really odd!!

You have the world's largest tuning slide in your right hand. So, a fifth position can never be flat by itself.

I'm playing the trombone for thirtyfive years now, and a sharp d in closed position never occurred to me - so far...
But, who am I and what do I know?
5th position being flat comparison to where it is normally in tune with other notes like Gflat or Dflat. Of course I compensate but I only have to change my 5th position for Bflat...
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by FeelMyRath » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:24 pm

D is definitely slightly sharp in first on my R4f
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by brassmedic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:34 pm

D is right in tune on my 42B. Or more accurately, the Bb one partial below it is flat, but it makes more sense to use the Bb as the reference point. Out in 5th position the Bb is definitely lower than the other partials, though.
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Tooloud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:53 pm

I don't teach positions, as soon as the student is beyond the point of a mere beginner. The overtones never quite line up. So the player has to hear, where the tone is in tune, not to see. I admit that there are kids in an orchestra I occasionally have to play in, who use the slide guided by learned positions. Luckily, in this school orchestra the strings do the same... Earplugs are helping a little bit.

On topic: Could anybody of the learned and experienced professionals explain, why the d is sharp today and was flat in my university days - and still is on all my trombones? Thanks in advance!
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by DrBassTrombone » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:09 am

On the topic of the D, studying out of Ben’s Basics have proven to move my D from its usual flat position to being unusable. I believe we learned to lip the D down from a young age and have then learned to manipulate the tone to match the rest of the horn. Do you notice a tone quality difference on the D compared to the C# or C? I’m afraid we’ll all just have to look into having slides made with a sharp 1st position in the future ;)
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Tooloud » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:01 am

On trombone - I have played only bass over the last years - I do notice a small, but remarkable difference in sound.

The same phenomenon exists on french horn, where this partial is neither e flat nor d and the sound is tinny and hollow (on the F-side of the double horn). When I listen closely, I think I find this on trombone, too. Not that it matters in any playing situation on trombone, for I don't do solo performances on bass trombone (Are there any musical pieces for this instrument as solo? I haven't found any...), but I do on french horn, where I use this partial only for fast runs (At the moment in the Allegro of Mozart Horn Concerto 1), where one or two odd tones do not really matter.

On topic: I've checked it out on all my three trombones: When I tune my instruments to be in tune on F (a tiny bit sharp) and b flat in closed position, the d is too flat to be useable. According to an electronic tune device, of course. Sure, I could lip it up, but doing this I blow no longer on the center of the note and the sound deteriorates. So this problem may come down to tuning the instruments.

@blast: How do you tune your trombone?
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Re: Flat TR181

Post by Steve335 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:17 pm

This has happened to me on several instruments.
It’s very easily solved. A repairman will easily cut a very small section of your tuning slides to bring it up to pitch.
It’s a very easy and inexpensive job.
I recently tried a Shires that I couldn’t get to 442 pitch, and I’ve had several trombones that I’ve had cut.
It’s very common.
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