Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:11 am

Tangentially related, I tried out a 2RVE 8" bell at the factory, with a 525 slide and I absolutely loved it.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:35 pm

Quote from: tbathras on Mar 05, 2017, 08:11AMTangentially related, I tried out a 2RVE 8" bell at the factory, with a 525 slide and I absolutely loved it.

Me too. My go-to horn, all other things being equal.

S.

P.S. Or the same bell in 8.5 size. A little more...dispersed. In a good way. Fills the room more than coming off the back wall.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:34 pm

Quote from: sabutin on Mar 05, 2017, 12:35PMMe too. My go-to horn, all other things being equal.

S.

P.S. Or the same bell in 8.5 size. A little more...dispersed. In a good way. Fills the room more than coming off the back wall.

I was looking for a horn to ride the line between 1/2nd symphonic tenor and 2/3rd jazz tenor... hence the 8" bell.

If it were just for sym. I'd go 8.5 no questions.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:50 am

Quote from: JSBassTrb on Mar 04, 2017, 05:35AMI'm on the Bollinger Bell, independent trubore valves, yellow B tuning slide, dual bore yellow slide with nickel crook, using a #2 leadpipe.

It wasn't clear to me that you were playing bass trombone earlier. There is no "TX" tuning slide for bass and you already are on the more focused feeling "B" tuning slide.

Aside from practice and/or mouthpiece, which sounds like the route/s you are sticking with for now, I might consider a slightly more focused leadpipe, either a B1.5 or B1.5L, or a single bore slide. If you continue to have issues in a few months speak to your teacher and then give us a shout, I'm sure we can find something that will help.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:54 am

Quote from: Trekkie Trombone on Mar 04, 2017, 02:16PMHi Guys,

I'm Nicholas, Trombone specialist at Long & McQuade in Toronto. I double checked the bell I think we're talking about and it is in fact a
2RVE 7.75. Double checking the measurement it is in fact 7.75". Feels a little to small for an orchestral sized horn but for someone going for a smaller setup it feels like a great bell!

Hello Nicholas,

If it ends in 7.75 I can only assume this is a small bore bell (I am not aware of any large/medium bells smaller, though Gabe might be able to comment further). If the bell code begins with an "S" prefix, it definitely is (S 2RVE 7.75). Please get in touch with us at the shop if there are any questions and we can clarify there before posting anything else here.

Cheers,
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:57 am

Quote from: tbathras on Mar 05, 2017, 08:11AMTangentially related, I tried out a 2RVE 8" bell at the factory, with a 525 slide and I absolutely loved it.
Quote from: sabutin on Mar 05, 2017, 12:35PMMe too. My go-to horn, all other things being equal.

S.

P.S. Or the same bell in 8.5 size. A little more...dispersed. In a good way. Fills the room more than coming off the back wall.

This has been the most popular medium bore trombone set-up in the years I've been here. It just plain works. Colorful, rich, flexible, malleable.

I personally use the T25NLW slide with larger shank receiver and 8.5" 2RVE bell often as well.

Ken Thompkins will be using a 2RVE 8 this week as he solos at the ATW, should you get a chance to hear him. Highly recommended!

Ben

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:52 am

JSBassTrb what mouthpiece are you currently using?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:45 am

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 06, 2017, 05:54AMHello Nicholas,

If it ends in 7.75 I can only assume this is a small bore bell (I am not aware of any large/medium bells smaller, though Gabe might be able to comment further). If the bell code begins with an "S" prefix, it definitely is (S 2RVE 7.75). Please get in touch with us at the shop if there are any questions and we can clarify there before posting anything else here.

Cheers,
Ben

Hi Guys,

That bell goes way back to the very first days of small bore instruments that we carried. The first few examples were modular as well as fixed. At least that's how I remember that one.

Darren

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:16 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 06, 2017, 05:50AMIt wasn't clear to me that you were playing bass trombone earlier. There is no "TX" tuning slide for bass and you already are on the more focused feeling "B" tuning slide.

Aside from practice and/or mouthpiece, which sounds like the route/s you are sticking with for now, I might consider a slightly more focused leadpipe, either a B1.5 or B1.5L, or a single bore slide. If you continue to have issues in a few months speak to your teacher and then give us a shout, I'm sure we can find something that will help.

Ben

Sorry about that - I should've made it clear!

I did pick up a single bore slide with a 1.5L leadpipe, and while maybe some stuff such as high range was slightly easier, I just couldn't get the sound I wanted on it. I have since switched back to the dual bore. I'll give the single another try though.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:52 pm

Ben,

I have a worn ball-end linkage rod on my Shores rotor valve. Is this something I can order myself or do I have to do it trough an authorized tech and pay for his time, mark-up and $140 in gas to drive to where he is to drop it off and again to pick it up? I have no issue going to my 'local' tech for things I'm not able to do, but I can assure you, I can handle this one myself.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:11 am

Quote from: BillO on Mar 06, 2017, 08:52PMBen,

I have a worn ball-end linkage rod on my Shores rotor valve. Is this something I can order myself or do I have to do it trough an authorized tech and pay for his time, mark-up and $140 in gas to drive to where he is to drop it off and again to pick it up? I have no issue going to my 'local' tech for things I'm not able to do, but I can assure you, I can handle this one myself.

Please conteact me directly at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and we'll be glad to help.

We do sell some of our repair/replacement parts directly to the public. Depending on what someone is requesting, we will recommend that they consult with a tech first, especially if they are hoping a specific tech will do the work. This is mainly to make sure that the correct parts are ordered. Techs will often have parts on hand or might have other suggestions not previously considered. If a customer insists it's caveat emptor, as most part sales are final.

Bill O's request is a different, more simple case, but I wanted to use this public request/occasion to put the general information out there. For specific requests you can also always contact me at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url]

-Ben

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:42 am

Quote from: JSBassTrb on Mar 06, 2017, 04:16PMSorry about that - I should've made it clear!

I did pick up a single bore slide with a 1.5L leadpipe, and while maybe some stuff such as high range was slightly easier, I just couldn't get the sound I wanted on it. I have since switched back to the dual bore. I'll give the single another try though.

What kind of sound are you looking for? What's missing? Are you trying to emulate anyone else's sound?

ttf_JSBassTrb · Post by **ttf_JSBassTrb** » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:21 am

Depth and core to the upper register. To your earlier question, I'm on a 1-1/2G right now. Not necessarily anyone else's, just what I hear in my head as my sound.

ttf_tmmytm1 · Post by **ttf_tmmytm1** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:23 pm

Starting to see nickel silver tuning slides out there. What sound/playing characteristics does this bring to the table?
Interested to know hhow the nickel silver tuning slide with affect the sound, etc. in general.

Thanks!!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:45 am

Quote from: tmmytm1 on Mar 11, 2017, 09:23PMStarting to see nickel silver tuning slides out there. What sound/playing characteristics does this bring to the table?
Interested to know hhow the nickel silver tuning slide with affect the sound, etc. in general.

Thanks!!

Nickel tuning slides generally give more point to the articulation and more brilliance to the sound. They sacrifice a little bit in terms of warmth and/or lover overtones. Currently, nickel tuning slides are a custom order option only.

-Ben

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:57 am

What would the "M" in a: 'B2.5 SSM' leadpipe stand for?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:09 am

Quote from: Matt K on Mar 17, 2017, 04:57AMWhat would the "M" in a: 'B2.5 SSM' leadpipe stand for?

Hi Matt,

I actually have no idea! Could be a few different things: could've been a pipe we did for someone specific and they asked for the "M". Could be a pipe length in between a standard SS pipe (9 3/4") and a short SS pipe (8 3/4"). Those would be my guesses. If I find our more I will let you know.

Good to see you at ATW, sorry we didn't get to talk more.

Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Hi Ben,

I am still looking around how to do my superbone project. I found a maker who is willing to do, but I can use some shires part...so here it is:

I am looking for .500 , .508 or double bore configuration of the two. I am looking for a sound somewhere between the King 3B and David Steinmeyer's Martin. Let me know what kind of bell section (yellow or gold brass, basically for small jazz/funk/latin groups and slide/leadpipe would you recommend. I will need the bell to be with removable braces so I can use a second bell in copper or red brass with larger flare for classical gigs (small ensembles).

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 17, 2017, 06:09AMHi Matt,

I actually have no idea! Could be a few different things: could've been a pipe we did for someone specific and they asked for the "M". Could be a pipe length in between a standard SS pipe (9 3/4") and a short SS pipe (8 3/4"). Those would be my guesses. If I find our more I will let you know.

Good to see you at ATW, sorry we didn't get to talk more.

Ben

Hey Ben,

Thanks for the feedback, anytime I see one of the sterling ones I give it consideration because they seem to work really well for me. One of these days when I pay off my student loan debt I'm going to have to go up there to have a custom set made

And no worries, you were busy! Busy is good! I actually ran into some people I went to school with so I left the showroom after I had tried out everything I had set out to try! It confirmed my suspicion that I'm probably better of on a 562/562 slide for the bass stuff. I converted that Edwards slide you sold me into 547/562 with a spare set of Yamaha tubes I had sitting around. Its fine for the time being but I think the first thing I'll be doing when I get those loans paid off is a celebratory B62LW

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:01 pm

If it helps narrow it down, it apparently used to belong to Matthew Guilford.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:43 am

Quote from: Matt K on Mar 17, 2017, 06:01PMIf it helps narrow it down, it apparently used to belong to Matthew Guilford.

In that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:04 am

Ben-

I need to replace the bumpers on my axial valve. It's an older one, got it around the year 2000. Can you point me in the right direction to obtaining a few.

Thanks.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:29 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Mar 18, 2017, 06:43AMIn that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.

Excellent! I'd forgotten about that, it makes perfect sense.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:48 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Mar 18, 2017, 06:43AMIn that case, I know what it is. Matt used to play a Monette mouthpiece, which would bottom out in the standard flaring of the receiver at the time. That spec has changed since then and I think is no longer necessary, but the M indicates that the mouthpiece will sit a little less deep in the pipe.

Thanks, Gabe!

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:49 am

Quote from: cigmar on Mar 18, 2017, 10:04AMBen-

I need to replace the bumpers on my axial valve. It's an older one, got it around the year 2000. Can you point me in the right direction to obtaining a few.

Thanks.

If still in NJ I would contact your local Shires dealer, which is Dillon Music. They should be able to help you.

Best,
Ben

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:39 am

Quote from: griffinben on Mar 20, 2017, 06:49AMIf still in NJ I would contact your local Shires dealer, which is Dillon Music. They should be able to help you.

Best,
Ben

Will do. Thanks Ben.

Is this a possible DIY project or should I leave it to Dillon's techs?

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:15 am

Ben, my apologies if this has been covered already, but why do you prefer the dual bore valve on your Chicago model over the other Shires offerings?? Thanks, Greg

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:40 am

Quote from: cigmar on Mar 20, 2017, 07:39AMWill do. Thanks Ben.

Is this a possible DIY project or should I leave it to Dillon's techs?

This depends on your comfort level. The bumpers are what control the port alignment and need to be trimmed so that the valve aligns properly. In the case of an axial, this is done by looking down the neckpipe (tuning slide side) with a flashlight to see the ports and trimming the bumpers accordingly. There's definitely a feel to this; if not familiar it can take along time and/or you may go through a bunch of bumpers before you get it right. I'll leave it to you if you feel comfortable or not with it.

There's a possibility that they could do this for you while you wait at the shop. I'd contact Dillon and ask.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:49 am

Quote from: TNTBONE on Mar 20, 2017, 10:15AMBen, my apologies if this has been covered already, but why do you prefer the dual bore valve on your Chicago model over the other Shires offerings?? Thanks, Greg

I play a dual bore valve on my personal set up (Chicago with dual bore valve) and a 1.5 leadpipe. I wanted my everyday large bore set up to be light, crisp, colorful, and quick responding. I personally like the focus and response it brings to the horn, it feels very lithe, singing and soloistic to me. The axial feels broader in scope to me and doesn't match well to what I use a large bore tenor for. (FWIW, I am very interested in getting an all yellow brass set up to complement it, i.e. Vintage New York).

I need to stress that this choice reflects my personal opinion and needs, with no official byline attached to the company through it. I try to match each horn to the individual playing it and their wants and needs, which can be different than my own.

I hope that helps.
Ben

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:58 am

Very helpful Ben.. Thank you, Greg

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:41 pm

Something I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section. My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings? If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:44 am

If that brace was solid then you could not disassemble the Thayer valve section... Try taking it apart without lossening that.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:47 am

Quote from: SilverBone on Mar 20, 2017, 10:41PMSomething I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section. My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings? If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.

Sounds like perhaps you haven't removed the core from the valve before? You have to loosen those connections, then unscrew the ring around the valve, then it all comes apart. (You'd also need to disconnect the lever linkage, too)

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:34 am

Quote from: SilverBone on Mar 20, 2017, 10:41PMSomething I've been wondering about for a while:

Shires bell sections have fittings that screw onto the valve section. My Thayer valve section also has some screw fittings that attach to the upper loop of the valve section (smaller than the bell fittings).

What is the purpose of the smaller fittings? If you disconnect them, you can't disassemble anything.

As Zachary (HouBassTrombone) mentioned, this is so the Axial flow valve can be taken apart for service. The neckpipe (with accompanying tuning slide receiver and bell brace, with angle brace to upper loop of F valve tubing) is soldered onto the bearing plate.

Quote from: tbathras on Mar 21, 2017, 07:47AMSounds like perhaps you haven't removed the core from the valve before? You have to loosen those connections, then unscrew the ring around the valve, then it all comes apart. (You'd also need to disconnect the lever linkage, too)

Unless you are a professional tech we STRONGLY advise NOT taking apart our axial flow valves. The fit of our valves is much more precise than other and/or earlier valves that needed regular attention to function. Differences of 0.0001" can make a difference in how this valve operates. Taking apart the valve instantly voids the warranty. We've had to give bad news to too many well intentioned people that took their valves apart, re-assembled them and found that the action was worse or not functioning at all. If one insists on disassembling their valve we cannot warranty the part.

The best way to keep your valve working properly is OIL. This is true of all of our valves, but particularly so axial flow valves. The core (rotor oil), the spindle (bearing and linkage oil), and the miniball joints (ball joint grease or similar heavy grease) all need regular attention to keep from wearing out and to flush out moisture (to prevent anything organic reacting or growing in there). As I often say: Oil is cheap, valves are expensive.

I hope this helps.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:01 pm

Hi Ben - I thought the recommendation was just not to remove the stop arm screw on the spindle to remove the back plate?

ttf_JWykell · Post by **ttf_JWykell** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:56 am

I have a question about gooseneck bore/venturi. I currently use a .525 bore Shires slide with a gooseneck which is the same gooseneck as I would be using for a .547 bore Shires slide. One thing that has often been noted about the bach 42 is that it is a combination of parts from other bach models. Particularly the slide crook of the 50, and the gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare of the 36 (with the flare being spun to 8 1/2 instead of 8 inches). Many have said that the 36 neck makes the large bore horn feel stuffy. Bach even makes a more open version of the 42 neck now. So I was wondering how the gooseneck might play into the interchangeability of Shires parts?

I am assuming that Shires has only two size of gooseneck for tenor trombone. The size for large and medium bore and the size for small bore. I have often wondered about the shires .508-.525 dual bore slide and I was in part wondering about goose neck dimensions in terms of this slide. In all honesty I am probably at least a year of from being able to buy any new horns, but I've wondered about a .508-.525 slide horn with an 8 or even 8 1/2 inch bell and possibly an f-attachment. I am wondering what the difference would be in matching this slide to the small bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares. (assuming 8 inch flare) vs the large/medium bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares? I would be curious both in terms of anticipated effect, and if possible just in terms of tubing diameter numbers, or some idea of the size differences if not specific numbers.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:30 pm

Hope you don't mind a brief interjection Ben, but I might be able to give an endorsement here since I owned everything spoken of.

I owned a Shires T0825GLW slide that I purchased used from Dillon. For one reason or another, it had a small bore Shires receiver on it and mated with my small bore Bach horns as well as a friends 36. With the small receiver in my horn, it played rather flat on the Bach bells. I'm sure there was something about the bell dimensions that made it the case. It was a lot less flat on the 36 I tried it with than the Bach 6 bell that I had.

I later had it converted to the normal, large bore tenon. I had both a straight gooseneck, a straight Bach 42 bell section, a Bach 42G bell (setup for Shires), a Shires 2RVET7 bell, a Bach 36 bell (Setup for Shires), and a 2RM8 bell throughout various times as well as with a traditional rotor, straight neckpipe, and tru-bore rotor.

The 508/525 slide is really quite versatile, and this slide worked the best with the Shires large bore bell sections, for me. When I paired it with the Bach bells (setup for Shires), it was still a pretty great horn but wasn't as easy to color as I like as compared to the Shires bells. When I put it on a Bach 42 bell section, I noticed the same effect but more exaggerated. So I think the bell was part of the equation, but so was the smaller neckpipe and probably the tuning slide and its results on the overtone series.

Another thing: At the time, I found that I actually preferred the Tru-bore compared to the neckpipe regardless of the style of playing I was doing. Gave just a little extra depth to the sound and didn't negatively influence my playing either way. Bear in mind that I'm used to playing large bores and basses, so that can obviously be qualified.

In short though: I would still very likely own it if I weren't an amateur at the moment. I picked up a used small bore Shires and between it and my 547 horn... I just wasn't using my 508/525 slide. THere are definitely times that I've used one or the other that I thought I would prefer the 508/525 slide I had, but they are more rare than the other way around. The one thing that I think I would do differently if I were to order a new one is order one that didn't have gold brass tubes. I think either a full nickel or yellow brass slide would have been a better fit for the commercial stuff I did with it.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:40 am

Quote from: JWykell on Mar 25, 2017, 08:56AMI have a question about gooseneck bore/venturi. I currently use a .525 bore Shires slide with a gooseneck which is the same gooseneck as I would be using for a .547 bore Shires slide. One thing that has often been noted about the bach 42 is that it is a combination of parts from other bach models. Particularly the slide crook of the 50, and the gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare of the 36 (with the flare being spun to 8 1/2 instead of 8 inches). Many have said that the 36 neck makes the large bore horn feel stuffy. Bach even makes a more open version of the 42 neck now. So I was wondering how the gooseneck might play into the interchangeability of Shires parts?

I am assuming that Shires has only two size of gooseneck for tenor trombone. The size for large and medium bore and the size for small bore. I have often wondered about the shires .508-.525 dual bore slide and I was in part wondering about goose neck dimensions in terms of this slide. In all honesty I am probably at least a year of from being able to buy any new horns, but I've wondered about a .508-.525 slide horn with an 8 or even 8 1/2 inch bell and possibly an f-attachment. I am wondering what the difference would be in matching this slide to the small bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares. (assuming 8 inch flare) vs the large/medium bore tenon/gooseneck/tuning slide/bell flares? I would be curious both in terms of anticipated effect, and if possible just in terms of tubing diameter numbers, or some idea of the size differences if not specific numbers.

One of the big surprises when I started working here and really learning about brass design is that the instruments often have a lot of steps, sometimes drastic, and that these things actually help stabilize the horn and/or give it certain characteristics. It's really quite impossible to design a trombone without a step up and step down, because of the handslide. We've talked about Vincent Bach's designs quite a bit and Steve is is pretty sure that those steps are intentional from a design standpoint, not an economic one, as they mirror some of the characteristic steps found in vintage Bach trumpets.

All of which is to say, unless you are willing to go down a deep rabbit hole and spend soem $, take the instrument as a collection of parts, not specific measurements. We've already spent a lot of that money so that you don't have to. I won;t claim that our findings and decisions will be exactly in line with your aesthetic wants, but from an experimental standpoint we understand the cost (both financial and mental).

We use the same neckpipe and valves for all large and medium bore applications. We can generally tailor the feel to fit a "medium bore" style feel through the handslide, tuning slide and leapipes (steps, again). We've found great success with this approach for both our large and medium bore offerings with very few complaints except those wanting a more compact sounding/feeling medium bore horn; one that is more like a large small bore, rather than a small medium bore.

In those instance, our customers usually got with the straight .508 slide and an SY tunign slide. There's not been a need for us to go full on .525 with small bells. We've tried the straight .525 slide with our small bore bells. The intonation was not worth fighting. The .508 approach is the what we recommend if you are looking for a more compact medium bore design based on small bores, like the one found on a King 3B+ or Benge 170. We can make these horns with a valve too.

The valve makes a huge difference in feel and playibility, regardless of whether you are int he valve register or not. Adding a valve adds weight. Adding a valve changes resistance (more diffuse in an axial, more focused with a rotor or Tru-Bore). Matt's comment about the Tru-Bore is not surprising, we have heard from many people that they love the Tru-Bore not just for the valve register, but for the way it slots in the upper register. This feeling can me emphasized or decreased depending on the slide.

The T08-25 is an odd beast. When I was first trying Shires trombones, maybe 15 years ago now, Gabe put together a horn for me that I still remember the specs of: 2YM 8/Tru-Bore/TY/T08-25. It was the ultimate show horn, incredibly versatile and lithe. I still have dreams about that horn (one day...one day...). Our general feedback from the T08-25 slide is that it changes the intonation slots enough that many people do not want to deal with it. TOO many steps, too large. Anyone that has played a vintage Conn 32H knows that the intonation is different than most horns. Not insurmountable, but it's there. Sometimes that is more than what someone is willing to deal with in a premium horn, or if they are moving between several horns, so most opt for a straight ahead .525. It's also very versatile, especially when you consider that it can take both large and small shank leadpipes.

But that is going larger, not smaller. In terms of playibility, the T08-25 is indeed quicker responding than a straight .525 slide, which a more focused attack and density to the sound. It requires a different air expansion to fill up. In the valve range, you need a decent size mouthpiece, at least in cup volume, to get it to approach medium or big tenor sound. It's not .508 w/valve small, but there's plenty of room for a small shank 5G to fill up. I would definitely recommend an 8" bell over an 8 1/2" bell, unless you were going for a specific application.

I've sold exactly zero T08-25 handslides in my time here. That slide will work with the neckpipe and valves currently here, but more mainstream parts have done largely the same thing, so we sell more of those. I've been considering buying one for myself (because what I really need are more options....right). If I pull the trigger, I'll report back here.

The long of the short of it: unless you are looking for something very specific, I recommend more conventional routes. There's usually a reason why that stuff is mainstream: it works!

I hope this helps.
Ben

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:49 am

Ben (orn anyone else),

have you tried combining a T00-08 slide with a bigger bell? Let's say 8.5 inch? What was the result?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:02 am

Quote from: bonenick on Mar 27, 2017, 06:49AMBen (orn anyone else),

have you tried combining a T00-08 slide with a bigger bell? Let's say 8.5 inch? What was the result?

The T00-08 slide is small bore only and we only go up to 8" on those instruments. We've not paired it with the larger medium/large bore components as they are not compatible. (We've haven't done the mod to make this happen for many of the same reasons listed in the immediately previous reply.)

I've played the T00-08 slide with 8" bell and the result was a quick responding yet full sounding instrument, with a dense core that radiates out slightly larger than what you would expect of a small bore horn. In general, our 7.75" bells respond more characteristically like 8" bells from other manufacturers, so 8" lets the size of the sound out even further. An 8 1/2" would likely go even more down that road. Even if it is possible to spin our small bore bells out that large, I don't think I would recommend it.

Ben

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:39 am

Given that Shires horns almost always play "larger" than their competition at the same bore size, one could most certainly put together a .508 Shires horn w/an 8" bell that would come very close to sounding...and playing...like a mainstream .525 bore instrument,especially if used with a fairly large m'pce.

S.

P.S. I haven't had much luck with a large shank receiver on my .525...it just makes it play like a less focused and somewhat weaker .547...so I don't think a large shank receiver on a .508/.525 would be much good, but you never know without trying.

ttf_JWykell · Post by **ttf_JWykell** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:48 am

Matt and Ben that is very helpful information. I especially didn't know that a wide spread of bore size on dual bore slides led to intonation 'squirreliness'. One of the things I love about my current set up is the intonation. I don't think I would be willing to give that up. The only dual bore slide I have ever played on was .547/.562 which is ratio wise less of a step than .508/.525. Ben that is also very interesting about steps in instruments. It's not a subject I've seen much about and does in fact seem very counterintuitive. Having said that on my current horn I started with a .547 slide, and I didn't notice any weird tendencies in terms of slotting, flexibility, intonation, or otherwise when I switched to a .525 bore slide. Given all that, I think I'll save up for a valve for my .525 horn, practice, and forget about my g.a.s. for a while.

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:10 am

Ben, I am curious about the dual-bore valve vs. the rotary valve and your thoughts on the pros and cons of each valve. I am especially interested in the differences with the New York and Chicago model configurations.. Thank you...

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:38 am

Quote from: TNTBONE on Mar 28, 2017, 06:10AMBen, I am curious about the dual-bore valve vs. the rotary valve and your thoughts on the pros and cons of each valve. I am especially interested in the differences with the New York and Chicago model configurations.. Thank you...

I wouldn't think of these as pros and cons as much as differing characteristics.

The Dual Bore valve is our most focused feeling valve. It has more definition to the sound, both on the overall tone quality and as you move through different notes. It really defines the slots. It also retains the most tenor sound below the staff.

The standard rotor shares more of it's timbral quality and feel with the axial flow valve, just on a smaller scale. There's a gentler transition through both the overtone series and in and out of the valve. The sound has (bear with me) tapered edges, i.e. if grows more gradually diffuse on the outer edges of the sound, which I think blend in a more anonymous manner with other instruments.

In terms of blend, I think of the dual bore working with other sounds almost like supporting bricks, while the standard rotor is more like a blending of paints as it fades from one color to the next (i.e. individual players).

I would put the synopsis this way: Dual bore is crisp and clear. Rotor is warm and blended.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:17 pm

Hi Ben - what are the MSRP in the US for the various goosenecks to make the custom trombones into straight horns.?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:38 am

Quote from: BillO on Mar 29, 2017, 03:17PMHi Ben - what are the MSRP in the US for the various goosenecks to make the custom trombones into straight horns.?

Hi Bill,

We recommend you be in touch with one of our Canadian dealers (http://seshires.com/dealers.html). Because of exchange rates and specific taxes/duties/VAT, international pricing is specific to the exclusive dealer's territories in those countries.

Ben

ttf_Bassmentbone · Post by **ttf_Bassmentbone** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:57 pm

I'd be interested in hearing a little bit about your 3 artist model bass trombones - Bollinger, Curran and Hecht. What makes them differnet from one another physically and in terms of sound. In general of course. Also, why choose the Hecht over the standard bass

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:15 am

Good day Ben. I would like to convert a 36G bell to fit my Shires dual bore valve. Can I purchase the bell mounts and bell tuning slide receiver directly from Shires, or do I need to go thru a dealer?? Thanks, Greg

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:01 am

Quote from: Bassmentbone on Mar 30, 2017, 01:57PMI'd be interested in hearing a little bit about your 3 artist model bass trombones - Bollinger, Curran and Hecht. What makes them differnet from one another physically and in terms of sound. In general of course. Also, why choose the Hecht over the standard bass

Our three artist model bass trombones do an excellent job of mirroring the style of the performers and the specific jobs they have to do.

The Bollinger model is fast responding with a big sound. Clarity and response is the priority here. Many people are surprised at how quickly the sound jumps out, especially considering how big the sound is. The sound is malleable but always has a fair amount of middle and upper overtones that give it great clarity on top of the full lower overtones. The Porsche Cayenne of bass trombones. Big, Powerful, but lithe.

The Curran model bass trombone is big and broad sounding, very even and emphasizes the lower overtones more than upper brilliance. The sound is less direct than it is with the Bollinger, a bit more enveloping from a sideways-sound standpoint. It's more subtle, but beautiful. I think of it more of a velvet fog, or a great steamship.

The Hecht straddles ground between these two sound, big sound paired with clarity. Not as quick as the Bollinger, not quite as dark as the Curran. It has a sound similar, but not completely the same as the Shires Custom Bass. Think of that sound let out a size or two and that's more of the idea. If the Bollinger is a Porsche Cayenne this is a Panamerica.

I should note that all of these horns have dual bore slides, so they feel distinctly different than our Shires Custom bass trombone which has a single bore slide.

The real proof would be to play any of these instruments to have a reference point from which you can decide what works best for you. All are great horns, it just depends what flavor you prefer.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:02 am

Quote from: TNTBONE on Apr 01, 2017, 06:15AMGood day Ben. I would like to convert a 36G bell to fit my Shires dual bore valve. Can I purchase the bell mounts and bell tuning slide receiver directly from Shires, or do I need to go thru a dealer?? Thanks, Greg

Hi Greg, send me a note at the shop: [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.

Ben