New York or Philadelphia Popular Pedagogy in 1920s?

[DanBlacksberg]

Hi all,

Here's a question that arises every once in a while. I'm new to the forum, so hopefully there are some threads out there already folks can point me to. Here goes:

I play a lot of klezmer music, so I also listen to lots and lots of recordings that were released on 78 from the 1910s, 20s (mainly), and 30s. Most of these recordings were recorded in New York, like the Abe Schawrtz Orchestra, Boberiker Kapelye, and the bands of clarinet stars Dave Tarras and Naftule Brandwein, and some were recorded in Philly, most notably the Harry Kandel Orchestra. There's brilliant and fiery trombone playing all over these recordings and these players work is the foundation of my own klezmer trombone style and vocabulary. Many of the musicians in these bands were Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, where trombone was mostly not part of klezmer music with the slide trombone being completely absent as far as I know (this is still true many Eastern European music folk traditions that might be thought of as distant cousins of klezmer).

Some of these immigrants may have played brass in Russian army bands, but the stories I've heard from elder musicians who grew up with these players from that bygone era suggest that many of them played quieter instruments like strings or tsimbl, a hammered dulcimer, and switched to instruments like brass and saxophones to compete in the loud markets of the burgeoning East coast cities. When I interviewed reed player Ray Musiker (still around at about 100!) he said the question was whether the guys from the old world could play "Amorican."

My experience of learning trombone is in Philly and New York had me bouncing around different "schools". I knew Laurie Frink and met many older musicians who'd studied with Carmine Caruso, I met the Maggio system guys, the Glenn Dodson-heads, and the Dave Taylor students. What I've often wondered is if these kinds of personality- or star-driven "methods" were present in the 1920s, especially in New York and what kinds of trombone/brass pedagody these "off-the-boat" Jewish musicians from Eastern Europe would have found their way to as they were trying to transition to their new loud instruments, likely as fast as they possibly could.

Some of these guys could really do it all! Check out Harry Raederman who certainly could play "Amorican" or Charles Guzikoff in Philly who played with Kandel's orchestra and the Philly orchestra! Beyond and specific methods these dudes got themselves into, I'd love to learn more the way trombonists talked about technique and playing their (significantly different) instruments back then. I'd also love to know and someday try out the kinds of setups they might have used back then, but that's for another post .

If you wanna dive in to the world of klezmer trombone, I have a youtube playlist of lots of my favorite tracks from the scratchy old days, plus some modern ones (including myself) here.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDZR ... HPKW9YwjIN

Thanks for reading and I look forward to learning from you all!

Dan

[Doug Elliott]

Very interesting topic. I don’t have any answers, but most of the trombones used then were likely much smaller bores that what anybody uses now. Maybe .465

[GabrielRice]

Fascinating question!

I wonder if they had any crossover with the great trombone soloists of the American concert bands...there is a 3-volume set written by a soloist named Charles Stacy (sometimes spelled Stacey) called Stacy's (or Stacey's) Successful Studies, published for the first time I think around 1916: https://cherryclassics.com/products/2694

Volume 1 looks to my modern eyes like pretty conventional lip slurs, but with articulation mixed in from the very beginning. Volumes 2 and 3 are etudes and scale studies. Good stuff.

[CalgaryTbone]

One interesting "crossover" player was Gardell Simons (sp?). He's the composer of "Atlantic Zephers", and was the teacher of Emory Remington. He played as solo trombone with some of the well known American Concert Bands in the same era as Pryor, but also played with the symphonies of Philadelphia and Detroit. Dillon's had one of his horns for sale on their site, and it had a screw bell (early example of that) with two bells. A small flare for the band/solo playing and a large flare for orchestral work.

My teacher, Ed Herman (NY Principal before Alessi) used to sub into Stan Kenton's band in NYC when he was a young player around town. Funny thing there was that he was happy to talk about those years with his students, but he left any mention of that out of his official bio since there could be a bit of a stigma in some circles for "crossing over", particularly in his early years (1950's).

A lot of NY and Philly-based orchestral players in the 40's - 50's did at least some playing with the various NJ-based Summer Bands that played at the Jersey shore. There are still some Gazebos along the boardwalks of the various beach towns where those bands gave nightly concerts. There are still a couple of those bands that play some gigs occasionally (they used to be Union Trust Fund Gigs 40-50 years ago - not sure about now). When the orchestras didn't have long seasons with their own summer work, playing a few summer band gigs would cover some bills in the off-season.

Jim Scott

[JTeagarden]

Hopefully not derailing anything here, but I am being introduced to Klezmer music from Ukraine through my wife, a native, Odessa seems to have been a kind of birthplace of this music, much the way New Olreans was for jazz: a port city serving as a natural crossroads of different cultures and musical styles, and lots and lots of live music.

Trombone seems to have featured in a lot of these older klezmer groups, and the distinctions between klezmer, and Moldovan and Ukrainian folk music very blurred.

[Joebone]

Cool thread! Fond memories of learning a lot of Klezmer while playing with a Philly society band to maintain some income momentum after I forswore road gigs to finish college.