What is slurring against the grain supposed to FEEL like?

[anothertrombone]

I'm getting back to trombone after a long time away, and I remember slurring against the grain is a particular issue for me, especially pp.

When I play G in the staff to F in the staff, staying on one partial is the easiest thing in the world. But playing G in 4th and F in 1st all of a sudden feels like a gargantuan effort with regards to airflow and embouchure. It feels like I have to make big adjustments to TRY to keep things smooth, no smearing, cracks, etc, and I don't have a lot of consistency with it.

Besides practicing this constantly, is there some other approach or way to visualize playing against the grain that might make it more consistent and with less disruption to my embouchure?

[Sesquitone]

I'm getting back to trombone after a long time away, and I remember slurring against the grain is a particular issue for me, especially pp.

When I play G in the staff to F in the staff, staying on one partial is the easiest thing in the world. But playing G in 4th and F in 1st all of a sudden feels like a gargantuan effort with regards to airflow and embouchure. It feels like I have to make big adjustments to TRY to keep things smooth, no smearing, cracks, etc, and I don't have a lot of consistency with it.

Besides practicing this constantly, is there some other approach or way to visualize playing against the grain that might make it more consistent and with less disruption to my embouchure?

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Fortunately, this is easily fixed: lip slurs. First, you must send for the very helpful book of “Lip Slur Melodies” by Brad Edwards. In the meantime, start with the first repeated bar of the exercise below (in 1st position): at first, extremely slowly, but in a single breath for as long as you can—even if it’s only for a few notes: lip slurs ONLY. Use vertical tongue positions corresponding to vowels: oo-ee-oo, ee-oo-ee, oo-ee-oo, ee-oo-ee, . . . . Gradually increase the tempo on that first phrase (repeating ad lib) until it feels comfortable. [If this gets boring, plane down to a lower position—Philip Glass style.]

Next, move on to the second measure, playing in shortest positions; here, you must synchronise tongue-position vowels with slide-position very precisely—this is key! [Again, plane down for variety, using adjacent slide positions.]

Move on in similar style, but not until you’re comfortable with all the prior exercises, until you reach your target. Once this is second nature—using lip slurs alone—experiment with different articulations. But always be aware of (vertical) tongue-position vowels synchronized with slide-position regardless of articulation. Lower notes require lower-tongue “vowels”: e.g. aw-oo-aw, oo-aw-oo, &c.

Good luck! And have fun with Brad’s wonderfully constructed melodies.



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[anothertrombone]

“Lip Slur Melodies” by Brad Edwards

Thought I had this, but it was the other Brad Edwards book, so I ordered it. I guess you can never have to many lip slur books.

And after a little bit of practice today, I'm starting to think maybe one of my problems is that I'm not 100% aware of my slide movement messing up my horn angle. Being really focused, especially with the slide hand, on letting the horn change angle seemed to improve things a little bit. I may have been counteracting that with the slide, even across a half-step like F# to F across the partial, or with a small movement like F to A in the staff.

But this raises a new question alongside my first one: why does articulating, even legato tonguing, offer so much security? I know articulating helps the embouchure start doing its thing to produce a note, but I don't really understand why it's so much more forgiving beyond the beginning of the note. Surely I'm doing the same questionable slide movement across partials and doing the same thing with my embouchure minus a small tongue movement, so why such a noticeable difference?

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, that's a good description. You have to stick with it. Lip flexibility takes months to really build, and can be developed to a great extent. You asked how it feels, it should just feel like articulating that next note without the tongue, and doing it in such a way that gives you valve-like precision without the slop of bent pitches or glisses between notes.

I've never used the Edwards book, I used Bach cello suites and Rochut and Remington slurs. Same result. This practice really strengthens your chops and helps your ear center the pitch. I think lip slurs/flexibility exercises are one of the most important things a trombone player can work to develop.

[Burgerbob]

It should feel pretty easy. It's actually very little work to move from partial to partial, though that might feel counter to everything that makes sense. You're probably gripping the partials really hard right now- which is fine! You just came back to the instrument. It's something that will come with time.

[Sesquitone]

I'm getting back to trombone after a long time away, and I remember slurring against the grain is a particular issue for me, especially pp.

.

You asked what should it FEEL like. It should feel a lot like running arpeggios via lips-slurs in a single position in the high register. But, in the lower register, where the harmonics are further apart (vertically), against-the-grain runs involve extending the slide as you ascend and vice versa. You are lip-slurring BETWEEN ADJACENT harmonics; so there is no need for additional articulation (such as tongued attacks).

The following ETSP Charts show a well-known "trick" of playing a Bb-major scale extremely fast and cleanly—probably faster than what's possible on a valve-trombone or euphonium. The top-left diagram shows notes from the fourth through tenth harmonics, up to A4; the top few notes are all essentially in 6th position. The top-right completes the scale, playing Bb4 on the eleventh harmonic, exactly half-way between 6th and 7th positions. With practice (of course), you can zip up-and-down this scale with impressively lightning speed (to show-off to your non-trombone-playing pals). It should (perhaps) FEEL like running a stick along a picket fence!

The other charts show a similar D-major scale, in a much higher register, of course. You can "plane this down" to major scales in Db, C, and B (natural). Ascending-minor scales are even "smoother" looking on ETSP Charts. Note how the trajectories of whole-tone runs curve back at the ninth harmonic. [The seventeenth harmonic for chromatic runs).



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[Wayne]

When I was younger my concept was that to build flexibility I needed to practice moving quickly between pairs of notes (lip trill) or other very close patterns like the “I’d rather play the clarinet” slurs from Remington [F Bb F D Bb F D Bb] . That never really amounted to much more than getting tense. What I eventually found is that I actually had to become flexible before I could work on the coordination to move quickly. Or was it that I needed a good range of motion before working on specific coordinations?

That is, I developed the ability to move through all my registers without breathing or resetting, very smoothly. The lips needed to be trained to buzz continuously while the airstream had to be trained to keep flowing. I got there with a simple mouth piece buzzing exercise and Colin’s Lip Flexibilities. The Colin’s worked, I think, because they mostly start from a middle partial and expand out in both directions. Once I could easily get to any note without any fuss, the fast movement of lip trills or fretting (cross grain playing) became much better.

[Wayne]

This is also one of the few things in playing where the ancient default advice of use more air actually is at least somewhat helpful.

[jthomas105]

This is an "old book", published 1916, I found that has some exercises that helps understand what against the grain or natural slurs should feel like. It's available on Scribed as a download. All three volumes are available on Cherry Classics. The pages are out of order, however, the circled numbers give you a place to start with two note slurs in one position then doing the same thing in two positions to understand the feel. The last one has some three note slurs. Can be transcribed mentally easily to play in other positions.

Sorry for the size of the pics. Don't know how to make them smaller.

Stacy's cover.jpg

[Mamaposaune]

Slurring from F in the staff to G should feel like slurring from F up to Bb, a slight adjustment to the lip and increase in airflow without forcing or increasing volume. if you can do that easily, I would focus on your slide technique. You should be moving the slide quickly and smoothly, and exactly "in time" - in other words, keeping a steady quarter note, move the slide right on the beat. If you move before the beat, you will get something other than a smooth slur. Try to imaging that you are blowing the slide out to 4th. If this is difficult, make sure you have a relaxed right-hand grip, just firm enough to have good control, and are supporting the weight of the horn entirely with your left hand. A reasonably slick slide is critical too.

[Kbiggs]

This ^^^

[jthomas105]

Yes to what Mamaposaune says. That is what those circled exercises from the Stacy book I posted allow a person to feel and add the slide change to.

[robcat2075]

What is slurring against the grain supposed to FEEL like?

When you are doing it right it should feel effortless. You'll feel the briefest blip on your lips at the transition.

You'll wonder why it was ever difficult.

I realize that is not a plan for action.

When I play G in the staff to F in the staff, staying on one partial is the easiest thing in the world. But playing G in 4th and F in 1st all of a sudden feels like a gargantuan effort with regards to airflow and embouchure.

So for this discussion, you're trying to slur from G to F



First, can you lip slur from G to D smoothly?



That should be an easy task. If you can't do that something is ginormously wrong. A previous commenter mentioned getting the right vowel for each note. that will be necessary for any note you play but extra so for lip slurs.

Once you can do G to D well... approach the G to F slur in increments

do G to Eb. repeat until it is smooth
b

then do G to E. repeat until smooth.


Finally, G to F



I haven't read all the replies. If this has already been suggested... now it has one more vote.

Extra: I believe that moving the slide slowly on slurs is unhelpful. Valved instruments have a nearly instantaneous change of tube length and have smooth legato. I think the closer trombone players can get to that quick change, the better their legato will sound.

[anothertrombone]

OK, back after a couple days of practicing this. Thank you Sesquitone for the Lip Slur Melody suggestion, I've been working with it and Brad Edwards' Lip Slurs book.

Everyone's right, it does feel effortless if I do everything right. I think my main issues were/are disrupting my embouchure with my slide movement, particularly when descending. I'm really not letting my trombone follow my pivot downward, and less air (like in piano parts) exacerbates the issue. It's also apparent with slurs in one position, so I think I'm really conflating that problem with slurring against the grain. Being more conscious about my pivot and slide technique, tongue position, and using a bit more air seems to be helping a lot.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'll incorporate the suggested exercises into my practice, too.