TromboneChat

Probably reinventing the wheel on this one: Has anyone put together a table of the different design elements of a mouthpiece, the range of design choices, and their effect on performance?

In advance: I realize mouthpieces are the sum of their many parts (maybe even more than), but a table along the lines of the following might be useful, and I would propose going to our resident MP designers (Doug, Harrison, Long Island Brass, probably several others I'm not recalling) for them to weigh in on the impacts of these design elements.

For instance:

Rim width: narrow or wide
Rim shape: flat or rounded
Cup shape: V or C
Cup depth: shallow or deep
Throat width: small or large
Mouthpiece materials

Maybe each of our resident experts could weigh in with their own take on 1) what the parameters even are, 2) which parameters are most important, and 3) what the effect is of changing a given parameter?

Definitely not any kind guide to choosing a mouthpiece, other than a kind of general education for the rest of us, flying blind on this regard.

I can't tell you how much money and time I've spent thinking about all of this. My only real takeaways were that *all* variables effect *everything.* When you change one thing, you're changing it's relationship to five different things.

I would love to hear from real experts on this stuff, too, but I found my sanity and musicality benefited greatly from finding one or two things and sticking with them.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. NGrinder is right that all parameters affect other parameters. I have a few ideas about these things that I'll put on my site that I'm building.

Conn put together a semi-scientific analysis of various mouthpiece parameters that is an interesting read:

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/images/ ... ooklet.pdf

GR Mouthpieces also has a pretty good guide on mouthpiece parameters. Again, they claim it's all based on equations, but who knows.

Sure, it's an overall effect, but surely there's a consensus as to what happens when you change one variable at a time, at least in terms of general tendencies.

For instance, to me, it seems like a more rounded rim makes it easier to color the sound but harder to slot, but this could be nonsense.

That Conn booklet I linked to is a great starting point. On the subject of rims, Conn says:

Generally speaking, a small radius on the inner portion of the rim (a sharper bite) provides more accurate attacks and greater precision. This is true because a more definite termination point is provided for the vibrating area of
the lips. When the inner edge is more rounded, attacks and intonation may not be as precise, but greater flexibility may be provided. However, this varies according to the individual embouchure, and the rim which is most comfortable and efficient for one player may not suit another.

A mouthpiece with a sharper bite often responds like a slightly smaller diameter mouthpiece. Consequently the sharper bite will tend to provide a somewhat brighter sound, or a tone with a little more "edge", and perhaps even a very slightly higher pitch

This is just vague enough that I agree with it, and it contains the golden bullet about "individual results may vary". I personally prefer rounded rims, and think they feel larger than spec. They give more flexibility (easier lip trills, lips slurs, etc) and for me give more accuracy. But I am also extremely used to playing with round rim profiles.

GR's website has all the parameters, more than any other maker I've seen. Possibly too many parameters.

The big ones you're missing from your list are:

Throat cylindrical length
Shoulder
Backbore taper / shape
Chamfer
Blank shape
Shank tip diameter/ engagement

Please excuse my ignorance, but what IS the “GR Website”

JTeagarden wrote: Fri May 22, 2026 1:04 pm Sure, it's an overall effect, but surely there's a consensus as to what happens when you change one variable at a time, at least in terms of general tendencies.

For instance, to me, it seems like a more rounded rim makes it easier to color the sound but harder to slot, but this could be nonsense.

I think you'll find there isn't. Also some of us have some very charged ideas. For example, rim shape has nothing to do with anything but comfort. Make the mouthpiece as comfortable as possible, then design around that.

I agree with Jeff and Nick.

I messed around with customizing individual things through Vennture but none of this stuff I came up with was as good as the pieces I pulled components from. All I can say is changing any one component made any pre-existing mouthpiece design wonky. Like it didn't want to tune well or didn't resonate well or didn't center well, however one would describe it. It wasn't like it just took off some high overtones or just added a third to my range; it changed the entire feel of the piece.

Ultimately I found a mouthpiece rim size and shape I liked (Doug's) and am sticking with it. Like Jeff said I started with feel and I'm building around that.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:59 am

JTeagarden wrote: Fri May 22, 2026 1:04 pm Sure, it's an overall effect, but surely there's a consensus as to what happens when you change one variable at a time, at least in terms of general tendencies.

For instance, to me, it seems like a more rounded rim makes it easier to color the sound but harder to slot, but this could be nonsense.

I think you'll find there isn't. Also some of us have some very charged ideas. For example, rim shape has nothing to do with anything but comfort. Make the mouthpiece as comfortable as possible, then design around that.

I don't let my lack of knowledge get in the way of my strong opinions.

So, looking at this engineering wise; one factor at a time is TERRIBLE engineering practice. If we take all those variables, they will each have a MEAN effect as well as possibly two way and three way interactions with other variables. My general thought that to convey things properly, the largest effect is the interaction (I mean this statistically) between the player and some features (like rim size and shape). The next strongest factors are probably interactions between some features, like rim size and cup depth. Maybe then you get to just the mean effects of each. If we can figure out a decent way to measure the output, we could pretty easily quantify it. But it wouldn’t make for a very interesting chart, I’d wager that you will have a ton of features that we can feel make a difference, but they are barely statistically significant and dwarfed by the player.

Cheers,
Andy

JTeagarden wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 7:14 am

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:59 am

I think you'll find there isn't. Also some of us have some very charged ideas. For example, rim shape has nothing to do with anything but comfort. Make the mouthpiece as comfortable as possible, then design around that.

I don't let my lack of knowledge get in the way of my strong opinions.

Oh man, I want to put that on shirts and sell them! At least half the country will buy them

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:59 am For example, rim shape has nothing to do with anything but comfort. Make the mouthpiece as comfortable as possible, then design around that.

With all due respect, and speaking as someone who plays on a greater variety of rim shapes than probably anyone you'll ever meet: your statement is simply wrong. I will not claim the rim shape has a direct impact on sound on an acoustical level (it might, but it's basically impossible to test). But it for sure can have a massive impact on how a mouthpiece plays, what it allows or not, facilitates or makes harder, way beyond just being "comfortable" or not . And if a rim shape changes how you play, it will also change how you sound.

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 11:53 am

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:59 am For example, rim shape has nothing to do with anything but comfort. Make the mouthpiece as comfortable as possible, then design around that.

With all due respect, and speaking as someone who plays on a greater variety of rim shapes than probably anyone you'll ever meet: your statement is simply wrong. I will not claim the rim shape has a direct impact on sound on an acoustical level (it might, but it's basically impossible to test). But it for sure can have a massive impact on how a mouthpiece plays, what it allows or not, facilitates or makes harder, way beyond just being "comfortable" or not . And if a rim shape changes how you play, it will also change how you sound.

Nope. That's not how it works. You're welcome to keep thinking that however. This is why I won't put anything like this out there. Too many "experts" on mouthpiece design.

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 11:53 am
... speaking as someone who plays on a greater variety of rim shapes than probably anyone you'll ever meet: your statement is simply wrong. I will not claim the rim shape has a direct impact on sound on an acoustical level (it might, but it's basically impossible to test). But it for sure can have a massive impact on how a mouthpiece plays, what it allows or not, facilitates or makes harder, way beyond just being "comfortable" or not . And if a rim shape changes how you play, it will also change how you sound.

Maximilien is right. Mouthpieces with thick rims lock your lips in and are not flexible. Orchestra musicians often like this, though. More security. Rounded or thinner rims are much more flexible. One of the reasons sackbuts song the way they do is because of the crazy flat rim the mouthpieces have that you use with them.

Also, if you round the "bite" of the rim, you will get more lip engagement. Keeping all other factors equal, more lip engagement will decrease the size of the cup volume (your lips are not taking up that space) while simultaneously making the mouthpiece feel larger. I use this to get away with keeping my tenor mouthpiece from being too wide but still feeling "right" on my face, since I need a 1.06" cup.

The bite absolutely affects articulations, though this varys by the player.

Depending on the blank, a thicker rim will add at least a little bit of mass. But if your blank is one of those types that look like the Gemini spaceship, then it might add a lot more mass. Like was discussed above, changing one little thing affects other parameters.

None of that is true. At all!

Well this is fun.

This is why 98% of the time I don't bother to comment here.

The reality on rims is play what you like, it all works if you like it. None of it works if you don't like it. I make all my rims super comfortable and design my pieces around it. Why? Because this is how I like rims. Also, it works! I can make a round rim work. I can make a thick rim work. I can make a thin rim work. Just play what you like. But don't go around saying some things works while others don't. That's bullshit. If it doesn't work the design package is crap.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 12:32 pm Nope. That's not how it works. You're welcome to keep thinking that however. This is why I won't put anything like this out there. Too many "experts" on mouthpiece design.

I could have sworn on my life that these very different rims I regularly play professionally felt and played entirely different to me, you know, as the guy playing them, and that they made me do things differently and sound different...but since you're clearly the world's greatest (only?) expert on mouthpiece design and you say it's not true, then I guess I've been gaslighting myself and I'm wrong about my own playing.



......glad this came up, now I know who not to ask to collaborate and hire to make prototypes the next time I have a research grant to study the playing characteristics of historical mouthpiece designs......

harrisonreed wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 1:43 pm Maximilien is right. Mouthpieces with thick rims lock your lips in and are not flexible.

Rounded or thinner rims are much more flexible. One of the reasons sackbuts song the way they do is because of the crazy flat rim the mouthpieces have that you use with them.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but we might have different thoughts about what "flexible" means. Do you mean in strict terms of "flexibilities"/lip slurs and the ease of changing partials, or a broader meaning of flexibility, in having more margin to play with (on any number of parameters)?

Definitely agree that there's a certain amount of "locking", and that a flatter, wider rim often feels more "secure"

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:07 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 12:32 pm Nope. That's not how it works. You're welcome to keep thinking that however. This is why I won't put anything like this out there. Too many "experts" on mouthpiece design.

I could have sworn on my life that these very different rims I regularly play professionally felt and played entirely different to me, you know, as the guy playing them, and that they made me do things differently and sound different...but since you're clearly the world's greatest (only?) expert on mouthpiece design and you say it's not true, then I guess I've been gaslighting myself and I'm wrong about my own playing.



......glad this came up, now I know who not to ask to collaborate and hire to make prototypes the next time I have a research grant to study the playing characteristics of historical mouthpiece designs......

That's cool, not my kind of work regardless. And honestly, in regards to your own playing, you probably are. Don't feel bad though, almost everyone lies to themselves about what they "need" one way or another. Usually it's rim size, rim width, bite, depth (I hate that word), throat size, oh hell they pretty much get none of it right, that's why I have a company

.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:59 pm

GabrielRice wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 2:15 pm Well this is fun.

I think if folks keep going he might break. He's almost there-I can feel it.

I'm the Energizer Bunny Bill!

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:12 pm

harrisonreed wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 1:43 pm Maximilien is right. Mouthpieces with thick rims lock your lips in and are not flexible.

Rounded or thinner rims are much more flexible. One of the reasons sackbuts song the way they do is because of the crazy flat rim the mouthpieces have that you use with them.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but we might have different thoughts about what "flexible" means. Do you mean in strict terms of "flexibilities"/lip slurs and the ease of changing partials, or a broader meaning of flexibility, in having more margin to play with (on any number of parameters)?

Definitely agree that there's a certain amount of "locking", and that a flatter, wider rim often feels more "secure"

Yes, I meant for lip slurs and lip trills. For me they are much easier on a thinner, more rounded rim than on a thicker flatter rim. I think it has to do with the fact that a round rim allows you to vary the horn angle or jaw position without changing the mouthpiece pressure very much on your face.

Some people think the thin rims are like cookie cutters and can't play on them at all. That is definitely why I had to add in the YMMV clause for that.

I regret not making this topic about religion, or politics.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 2:43 pm This is why 98% of the time I don't bother to comment here.

The reality on rims is play what you like, it all works if you like it. None of it works if you don't like it. I make all my rims super comfortable and design my pieces around it. Why? Because this is how I like rims. Also, it works! I can make a round rim work. I can make a thick rim work. I can make a thin rim work. Just play what you like. But don't go around saying some things works while others don't. That's bullshit. If it doesn't work the design package is crap.

Are you saying that the rest of the mouthpiece compensates for the “perceived” rim differences? I’m generally curious. I know how you have worked on studying this stuff!

JTeagarden wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 10:00 am I regret not making this topic about religion, or politics.

I mean, it's never too late.

BassboneJ25 wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 10:00 am

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 2:43 pm This is why 98% of the time I don't bother to comment here.

The reality on rims is play what you like, it all works if you like it. None of it works if you don't like it. I make all my rims super comfortable and design my pieces around it. Why? Because this is how I like rims. Also, it works! I can make a round rim work. I can make a thick rim work. I can make a thin rim work. Just play what you like. But don't go around saying some things works while others don't. That's bullshit. If it doesn't work the design package is crap.

Are you saying that the rest of the mouthpiece compensates for the “perceived” rim differences? I’m generally curious. I know how you have worked on studying this stuff!

After the previous explosion I hope you don't mind if I don't go down the rabbit hole. My point was it can all work. Except a sharp bite on a rim, that I refuse to do. I never change the radius ever.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 12:05 pm

JTeagarden wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 10:00 am I regret not making this topic about religion, or politics.

I mean, it's never too late.

Can you recommend a good rim for a mainline Protestant of the baby boomer generation?

Honestly, I don't even trust descriptions of rim shapes. Some of the rims people describe as round feel to me like they have a lot of bite and vice versa.

JTeagarden wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 12:51 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 12:05 pm

I mean, it's never too late.

Can you recommend a good rim for a mainline Protestant of the baby boomer generation?

Yes there would be a different rim for a mainline Protestant as opposed to an Evangelical.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 1:27 pm

JTeagarden wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 12:51 pm

Can you recommend a good rim for a mainline Protestant of the baby boomer generation?

Yes there would be a different rim for a mainline Protestant as opposed to an Evangelical.

I'm not religious but I KNOW there's got to be a good joke in there somewhere.

GabrielRice wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 1:20 pm Honestly, I don't even trust descriptions of rim shapes. Some of the rims people describe as round feel to me like they have a lot of bite and vice versa.

This is VERY true. People call stuff flat that's not flat, round that's not round, etc. My go to is here, play it.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 2:13 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 1:27 pm

Yes there would be a different rim for a mainline Protestant as opposed to an Evangelical.

I'm not religious but I KNOW there's got to be a good joke in there somewhere.

I’ll set it up: a Presbyterian, a Southern Baptist, and a Hasidic Jew walk into Dillons…

And the punchline is “… I said C-cup not V-cup! “

The middle is going to be the hard part.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:29 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:07 pm

I could have sworn on my life that these very different rims I regularly play professionally felt and played entirely different to me, you know, as the guy playing them, and that they made me do things differently and sound different...but since you're clearly the world's greatest (only?) expert on mouthpiece design and you say it's not true, then I guess I've been gaslighting myself and I'm wrong about my own playing.



......glad this came up, now I know who not to ask to collaborate and hire to make prototypes the next time I have a research grant to study the playing characteristics of historical mouthpiece designs......

That's cool, not my kind of work regardless. And honestly, in regards to your own playing, you probably are. Don't feel bad though, almost everyone lies to themselves about what they "need" one way or another. Usually it's rim size, rim width, bite, depth (I hate that word), throat size, oh hell they pretty much get none of it right, that's why I have a company

Stork Mouthpieces just made a YT video about throat sizes that is pretty useful if you are curious. Lots of good info there.

apetrombone wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 9:06 am

LIBrassCo wrote: Sat May 23, 2026 3:29 pm


That's cool, not my kind of work regardless. And honestly, in regards to your own playing, you probably are. Don't feel bad though, almost everyone lies to themselves about what they "need" one way or another. Usually it's rim size, rim width, bite, depth (I hate that word), throat size, oh hell they pretty much get none of it right, that's why I have a company

Stork Mouthpieces just made a YT video about throat sizes that is pretty useful if you are curious. Lots of good info there.

Oh worry not, he's already called them out on Facebook, saying they're frauds who don't know what they're talking about or what they're doing...

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 9:42 am

apetrombone wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 9:06 am

Stork Mouthpieces just made a YT video about throat sizes that is pretty useful if you are curious. Lots of good info there.

Oh worry not, he's already called them out on Facebook, saying they're frauds who don't know what they're talking about or what they're doing...

Now now, I was very clear with my words, I did not discriminate at all, I blew up at the entire industry. Fair and equal and all that. If you have read it you should, it's some of my better work.

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 10:15 am

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 9:42 am

Oh worry not, he's already called them out on Facebook, saying they're frauds who don't know what they're talking about or what they're doing...

Now now, I was very clear with my words, I did not discriminate at all, I blew up at the entire industry. Fair and equal and all that. If you have read it you should, it's some of my better work.

Yeh but who are you?? Just because you have a company do you have the market cornered? Not even close. And even if you did, like the ones who actually do have the market share, do they crap allover you? NO. Just be happy with you, sell your product including your instruments, and be happy. Some players like them. Why shit all over an entire industry?

WGWTR180 wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 10:40 am

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 10:15 am

Now now, I was very clear with my words, I did not discriminate at all, I blew up at the entire industry. Fair and equal and all that. If you have read it you should, it's some of my better work.

Yeh but who are you?? Just because you have a company do you have the market cornered? Not even close. And even if you did, like the ones who actually do have the market share, do they crap allover you? NO. Just be happy with you, sell your product including your instruments, and be happy. Some players like them. Why shit all over an entire industry?

Be sure to use that as the market plan for your company, you know, when you make something.

Who am I?

I'm the guy that does it better. I'm never satisfied, always improving, making more perfect models that blow away my only competition, last year's model. K thanks.

And keep in mind, YOU asked. If you don't like the response, don't ask the question. Gonna break my ass. Y'all ain't seen nothin.

Well that took 11 minutes. Don't you have a company to run? Now this is getting sad, yet funny in some dark way. Happy CNC-ing.

WGWTR180 wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 10:57 am Well that took 11 minutes. Don't you have a company to run? Now this is getting sad, yet funny in some dark way. Happy CNC-ing.

Happy Memorial Day! Have a calendar?

Anything else you wanna pick a fight about or are you done being a grumpy old man on the Internet spewing the proverbial get off my lawn?

Jesus Christ

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 11:31 am

WGWTR180 wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 10:57 am Well that took 11 minutes. Don't you have a company to run? Now this is getting sad, yet funny in some dark way. Happy CNC-ing.

Happy Memorial Day! Have a calendar?

Anything else you wanna pick a fight about or are you done being a grumpy old man on the Internet spewing the proverbial get off my lawn?

Jesus Christ

Come on guys, the Trombone Chat is supposed to be better than this. It's sad that, with all the knowledge and experience here, both from the mouthpiece makers and the players with vast and varied experience, this might have been a stimulating and constructive topic.

That's pretty normal for here. Either say what the majority expects to hear or be banished to bogeyland. It's spoken about often at events. Guess I'll be the pariah and say to here too. Like that'll be a surprise to anyone. Lol.

Wow. Throwing shade at people who have been making mouthpieces for the top professionals in the world since before you were born...that's some chutzpah, as they say where I grew up on Long Island.

I'm not just talking about John and Phyllis Stork...I'm also talking about Greg Black, Terry Warburton, Scott Laskey (RIP), and Doug Elliott, who has stayed conspicuously clear of this topic.

Bob wrote: Fri May 22, 2026 11:52 pm Please excuse my ignorance, but what IS the “GR Website”

Here you go. Lot's of info to think about here:

https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/271.htm

GabrielRice wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 2:39 pm Wow. Throwing shade at people who have been making mouthpieces for the top professionals in the world since before you were born...that's some chutzpah, as they say where I grew up on Long Island.

I'm not just talking about John and Phyllis Stork...I'm also talking about Greg Black, Terry Warburton, Scott Laskey (RIP), and Doug Elliott, who has stayed conspicuously clear of this topic.

Breaking eggs to makes omelettes and all that. Go ahead and line them up, I'll knock them down

I'm throwing shade at the entire industry, like I have been the whole time I've been in it. This isn't new. You should see what I say about trombone manufacturers, it's even worse!

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 2:12 pm That's pretty normal for here. Either say what the majority expects to hear or be banished to bogeyland. It's spoken about often at events. Guess I'll be the pariah and say to here too. Like that'll be a surprise to anyone. Lol.

You're in this very thread boasting about being rude, and then complaining about getting pushback on the very rudeness you pride yourself on. Your holding minority opinions are not why you're getting that pushback. Your rudeness, bully attitude and unwillingness to engage in discussion and debate are.

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 7:16 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 2:12 pm That's pretty normal for here. Either say what the majority expects to hear or be banished to bogeyland. It's spoken about often at events. Guess I'll be the pariah and say to here too. Like that'll be a surprise to anyone. Lol.

You're in this very thread boasting about being rude, and then complaining about getting pushback on the very rudeness you pride yourself on. Your holding minority opinions are not why you're getting that pushback. Your rudeness, bully attitude and unwillingness to engage in discussion and debate are.

Sure. Whatever you say.

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 7:16 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 2:12 pm That's pretty normal for here. Either say what the majority expects to hear or be banished to bogeyland. It's spoken about often at events. Guess I'll be the pariah and say to here too. Like that'll be a surprise to anyone. Lol.

You're in this very thread boasting about being rude, and then complaining about getting pushback on the very rudeness you pride yourself on. Your holding minority opinions are not why you're getting that pushback. Your rudeness, bully attitude and unwillingness to engage in discussion and debate are.

Exactly But as you can tell he's unfazed and will never get it.