TromboneChat

Fixed that for you.

Thanks, Doug.

So what we need to find the ideal throat bore is something like this:

I've been thinking about exactly this subject a lot lately... I'm glad to see this video agrees!

Also cool to see the metrics for MEP, it should be obvious that it's something we can measure but I didn't think it had been done.

Doug Elliott wrote: Fri May 08, 2026 7:32 am Fixed that for you.

Thanks. Did I post an unwatchable video?

WGWTR180 wrote: Fri May 08, 2026 9:01 am

Doug Elliott wrote: Fri May 08, 2026 7:32 am Fixed that for you.

Thanks. Did I post an unwatchable video?

Your original title reads "Bore Size Video from John Stork" but Doug fixed the title to reflect the person actually speaking in the video, Phyllis Stork, giving her rightful credit.

jjenkins wrote: Fri May 08, 2026 10:03 am

WGWTR180 wrote: Fri May 08, 2026 9:01 am

Thanks. Did I post an unwatchable video?

Your original title reads "Bore Size Video from John Stork" but Doug fixed the title to reflect the person actually speaking in the video, Phyllis Stork, giving her rightful credit.

Darn. My apologies.

There are ways to make large throats work on mouthpieces. Everybody is different, too. A large throat is super useful if you need a very wide dynamic "gamut", as it makes very loud dynamics less brassy and soft dynamics easier (ironically, soft is easier because the mouthpiece is less efficient with a large throat). It needs to be balanced in the cup, or backbore, or both. Making the throat longer (or slightly tapered in and out of the throat) also will balance the resistance.

Schilke bass trombone mouthpieces seem like the throat is pretty big, but they have very odd backbore shapes. The exit from the throat into the backbore is narrow and pretty long before it opens up.

I prefer a larger than normal throat most of the time on large bore.

Part of it is the air, but part of it is how much resistance you are going to provide at the chops (without it being negative like she brings up in the video).

I'm sure if you're in great shape and you're used to it, you can use a larger throat.

Great video. Good to see someone debunking "bigger is better". I liked the Stork pieces that I've used, and I think these videos were responsible for changing my mouthpiece direction for bass bone. I found Curry was a little better for me than Stork which in turn was a little better for me than DE on bass. I still use all DE for tenor, I'm not messing with that, but on bass I needed a little more V. I had wandered into bass mouthpieces that were too big and tiring me out and sounding bad at the same time. A smaller size with more V solved everything.

I've worked with Phyllis and John Stork and watched her work with friends. She is an absolute wizard with trumpet players.

In this video she didn't get into the relationship of the bore to the backbore taper. My experience, at least on bass trombone, is that radically different bore sizes can sound very similar and feel very similar to the player with adjustments to the backbore taper. I'd like to understand more about that.

There's so much more to it than this. The whole shape has relationships. Without addressing the entirety of the design it's kind of meaningless. A 300 bore on a bass bone throat can feel big and a 318 throat can feel tight. What's the rest? It's a shape! There is no individual parts! I feel like I'm looking at the dark ages. Step into the modern agee of design, it'll make so much more sense I promise. That, and we have cake .

I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go. I believe that John and Phyllis have just enough years under their respective belts to know what they're talking about.
I have experienced this very point first hand. I have a certain number of 1 type of mouthpiece that have been altered in many different ways including opening up the throat(none alerted by me BTW). Only 1 of them works pretty well. In fact that particular piece plays way better than another with a much larger throat. But the cup designs are waaaay different. Different makers-different designs.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:31 pm I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go.

exactly, this is very common with trumpet players.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:31 pm I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go. I believe that John and Phyllis have just enough years under their respective belts to know what they're talking about.
I have experienced this very point first hand. I have a certain number of 1 type of mouthpiece that have been altered in many different ways including opening up the throat(none alerted by me BTW). Only 1 of them works pretty well. In fact that particular piece plays way better than another with a much larger throat. But the cup designs are waaaay different. Different makers-different designs.

You clearly don't see the emails I get, lol. The vast majority of players have difficulty understanding how to even test a mouthpiece, much less how it works. Not sure what years have to do with anything here.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:44 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:31 pm I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go. I believe that John and Phyllis have just enough years under their respective belts to know what they're talking about.
I have experienced this very point first hand. I have a certain number of 1 type of mouthpiece that have been altered in many different ways including opening up the throat(none alerted by me BTW). Only 1 of them works pretty well. In fact that particular piece plays way better than another with a much larger throat. But the cup designs are waaaay different. Different makers-different designs.

You clearly don't see the emails I get, lol. The vast majority of players have difficulty understanding how to even test a mouthpiece, much less how it works. Not sure what years have to do with anything here.

Ok. You get emails complaining about Stork mouthpieces? I'm saying that John and Phyllis have a great rep and produce a great product. She's not suggesting someone take one of your pieces and start messing around with throats. They're your design and you spent time designing them with the throat in mind that you wanted. Not sure what the issue is. And players don't need to know how it works. You play. You like, You buy.

Burgerbob wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:36 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:31 pm I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go.

exactly, this is very common with trumpet players.

It is Aidan but it was also very common during the Bach 1 and 1/2G era to "drill out the throat" and that'll make it better. It ruined so many. Talk to players that played 11C mouthpieces. How many drilled out the throats hoping for a better result? Many!
I'm gonna get my Dewalt drill out and go to work.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:52 pm

It is Aidan but it was also very common during the Bach 1 and 1/2G era to "drill out the throat" and that'll make it better. It ruined so many. Talk to players that played 11C mouthpieces. How many drilled out the throats hoping for a better result? Many!
I'm gonna get my Dewalt drill out and go to work.

I actually have a 2G that was drilled out! They did ream a new backbore as well, so it was at least a little sophisticated.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:50 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:44 pm

You clearly don't see the emails I get, lol. The vast majority of players have difficulty understanding how to even test a mouthpiece, much less how it works. Not sure what years have to do with anything here.

Ok. You get emails complaining about Stork mouthpieces? I'm saying that John and Phyllis have a great rep and produce a great product. She's not suggesting someone take one of your pieces and start messing around with throats. They're your design and you spent time designing them with the throat in mind that you wanted. Not sure what the issue is. And players don't need to know how it works. You play. You like, You buy.

I'm not sure why you're intentionally adversarial over the Internet and take things on the worst way possible, but that's not what I said, and there's not much point in trying to clear it up.

Have a good one.

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:18 pm
I'm not sure why you're intentionally adversarial over the Internet and take things on the worst way possible, but that's not what I said, and there's not much point in trying to clear it up.

Have a good one.

Jeff... dude... you started that. Hahahaha.

Burgerbob wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:54 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:52 pm

It is Aidan but it was also very common during the Bach 1 and 1/2G era to "drill out the throat" and that'll make it better. It ruined so many. Talk to players that played 11C mouthpieces. How many drilled out the throats hoping for a better result? Many!
I'm gonna get my Dewalt drill out and go to work.

I actually have a 2G that was drilled out! They did ream a new backbore as well, so it was at least a little sophisticated.

The problem with whoever did this approach is that the backbore should probably be tighter if you open up the throat (though it tapers to the bigger throat, obviously!). Just a more gradual taper.

But you can't add material to the backbore when you ream the throat and then ream the backbore into the throat.

harrisonreed wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:18 pm

Burgerbob wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:54 pm

I actually have a 2G that was drilled out! They did ream a new backbore as well, so it was at least a little sophisticated.

The problem with whoever did this approach is that the backbore should probably be tighter if you open up the throat (though it tapers to the bigger throat, obviously!). Just a more gradual taper.

But you can't add material to the backbore when you ream the throat and then ream the backbore into the throat.

Harrison I think you're missing my point. I'm not sure how old you are but in this case it matters. There was a generation of players who literally used a Black and Decker and drilled out the throats on their mouthpieces. There was no approach except take the drill, aim, and go. The smart players actually had drill presses that produced a straighter throat. Only super smart people went to a mouthpiece expert and had work done. It was the wild, wild west!! =Kinda funny.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:29 pm

harrisonreed wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:18 pm

The problem with whoever did this approach is that the backbore should probably be tighter if you open up the throat (though it tapers to the bigger throat, obviously!). Just a more gradual taper.

But you can't add material to the backbore when you ream the throat and then ream the backbore into the throat.

Harrison I think you're missing my point. I'm not sure how old you are but in this case it matters. There was a generation of players who literally used a Black and Decker and drilled out the throats on their mouthpieces. There was no approach except take the drill, aim, and go. The smart players actually had drill presses that produced a straighter throat. Only super smart people went to a mouthpiece expert and had work done. It was the wild, wild west!! =Kinda funny.

No, I know this is what was done! I am with you 100%. I thought folks used lathes (in addition to the other crazy methods) to drill out the throat.

Hence how many mouthpieces folks ruined back then, right?

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:18 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:50 pm
Ok. You get emails complaining about Stork mouthpieces? I'm saying that John and Phyllis have a great rep and produce a great product. She's not suggesting someone take one of your pieces and start messing around with throats. They're your design and you spent time designing them with the throat in mind that you wanted. Not sure what the issue is. And players don't need to know how it works. You play. You like, You buy.

I'm not sure why you're intentionally adversarial over the Internet and take things on the worst way possible, but that's not what I said, and there's not much point in trying to clear it up.

Have a good one.

Jeff I actually backed you up stating that your designed pieces are made the way they're made. I guess I should've put LOLOLOL after the email statement. And YES years do count with any maker who does great work over a long period of time. The Storks are just 1 of many whether they are popular in the trombone world or not. That's not being adversarial-just stating facts.

harrisonreed wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:31 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:29 pm
Harrison I think you're missing my point. I'm not sure how old you are but in this case it matters. There was a generation of players who literally used a Black and Decker and drilled out the throats on their mouthpieces. There was no approach except take the drill, aim, and go. The smart players actually had drill presses that produced a straighter throat. Only super smart people went to a mouthpiece expert and had work done. It was the wild, wild west!! =Kinda funny.

No, I know this is what was done! I am with you 100%. I thought folks used lathes too to drill out the throat.

Hence how many mouthpieces folks ruined back then, right?

Craziness I tell you!!!!

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:35 pm

harrisonreed wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 2:31 pm

No, I know this is what was done! I am with you 100%. I thought folks used lathes too to drill out the throat.

Hence how many mouthpieces folks ruined back then, right?

Craziness I tell you!!!!

But when you do ream one, go all the way!!! It's an inverse bell curve, it gets better, then a lot worse, then way better again! Those people in the bad old days got scared when they shoulda kept going!!

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:52 pmIt is Aidan but it was also very common during the Bach 1 and 1/2G era to "drill out the throat" and that'll make it better. It ruined so many. Talk to players that played 11C mouthpieces. How many drilled out the throats hoping for a better result? Many!
I'm gonna get my Dewalt drill out and go to work.

I've heard a story about a trombonist named Bob Olson (played with Kenton in the late 1950's/early 1960's) who supposedly had a small lathe rigged up in the trunk of his car and would modify mouthpieces during breaks in gigs.

When people were drilling things, we mainly had Bach and Schilke to pick from. Effing things up by drilling was the first step to better custom mouthpieces. You don't know how something works until you break it and then try to fix it again. I never drilled anything out, but I bought a lot of oversized mouthpieces that made my playing progressively worse. Never figured it out until I stopped playing pro and there were better options available.

Burgerbob wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:36 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun May 10, 2026 1:31 pm I think we all know there's so much more to it than this/that. Phyllis wasn't talking about designing a mouthpiece with a small throat. I think the overall point was the following: just because a mouthpiece that one already owns and plays on plays a certain way just "opening up the throat" is not necessarily the way to go.

exactly, this is very common with trumpet players.

Possibly because Benade described it for trumpet in Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics. First edition was 1976. He had a method that involved listening for an upper harmonic to be in tune, or something like that.

But Sam Burtis also talked about it a bit on the -l and the old OTJ, so that may be where trombone players came up with it.

The other thing about "opening up the throat" with just a reamer or drill is that you're basically just increasing the cylindrical length of the the throat along with widening it. Longer cylindrical throat lengths typically tighten up the blow and mess with intonation across octaves and slotting -- it sort of cancels itself out.

Interesting subject...
I am a weirdo as I have had Ken Titmus of KT mouthpieces plugged and redrilled a lot of mouthpieces for me, and put a smaller throat, backbore on all my tenor pieces. The reason for this is that i find that brilliance often is lost with too big opening. I like my sound to be centered in the "sweet part of the sweet spot" which is high on the pitch . In that way I get more presence in pianissimo and more sparkle in fortissimo and in general a more elegant and exciting sound. I guess there is some trade offs but for me sound is most important. Also, I don't like the typical Bach G shape cup on tenor. I find that they somehow sounds more like a small bass( which is how they were marked as back in the days). As I have been experimenting I have found that the 250 size throat is the "sweet spot "or me ..both in large and small bore pieces. Would love to hear what You think about that? ..

Tbarh wrote: Wed May 13, 2026 1:20 am ... I have had Ken Titmus of KT mouthpieces plugged and redrilled a lot of mouthpieces for me, and put a smaller throat, backbore on all my tenor pieces. The reason for this is that i find that brilliance often is lost with too big opening.As I have been experimenting I have found that the 250 size throat is the "sweet spot "or me ..both in large and small bore pieces. Would love to hear what You think about that? ..

This is kind of the basis of my L1 mouthpiece design. The throat on that is .268, but that is still smaller than the more common throats used on orchestral mouthpieces. It also has a cup that is close to what tenor trombone mouthpieces used to have before the "bigger is better" trend began, around a 6 1/2 AL cup.

I thought that the O2 symphonic mouthpiece would be the one I would make the most of, but the L1 has been even more popular by far. So you're not alone, at least not from my small vantage point.

The thing with the throat size is that it must be balanced by the backbore, and the overall length of the throat area (and the shoulder, and the exit, etc). The throat diameter is just a number. .250 might be great for you, but I'm betting that Ken did some work on the throat length and backbore too, working together with that throat size, so that you like it.

harrisonreed wrote: Wed May 13, 2026 7:34 am

Tbarh wrote: Wed May 13, 2026 1:20 am ... I have had Ken Titmus of KT mouthpieces plugged and redrilled a lot of mouthpieces for me, and put a smaller throat, backbore on all my tenor pieces. The reason for this is that i find that brilliance often is lost with too big opening.As I have been experimenting I have found that the 250 size throat is the "sweet spot "or me ..both in large and small bore pieces. Would love to hear what You think about that? ..

This is kind of the basis of my L1 mouthpiece design. The throat on that is .268, but that is still smaller than the more common throats used on orchestral mouthpieces. It also has a cup that is close to what tenor trombone mouthpieces used to have before the "bigger is better" trend began, around a 6 1/2 AL cup.

I thought that the O2 symphonic mouthpiece would be the one I would make the most of, but the L1 has been even more popular by far. So you're not alone, at least not from my small vantage point.

The thing with the throat size is that it must be balanced by the backbore, and the overall length of the throat area (and the shoulder, and the exit, etc). The throat diameter is just a number. .250 might be great for you, but I'm betting that Ken did some work on the throat length and backbore too, working together with that throat size, so that you like it.

The backbore( on the large bore) is the same as the Marcellus model which also has a 250 bore..Very good match in other words .

you can see it in Greg Black bass mouthpieces too. nearly everyone I know plays on a .312 throat as opposed to the usual .316