Played my first usable double Bb today

[kurth83]

I've been playing baritone seriously for about 5 months now. I got into it because I really wanted to play Merry Tuba Christmas, something I intend to do every year from now on. Now that I am retired I am pretty much a full-time amateur musician.

It's exciting to make a major embouchure breakthrough in the high range, and while I have a feel I'm on the right track embouchure-wise I wanted to vet it with the community here.

I am primarily a trumpet player so for you guys a double Bb is a regular high C to me, so it's a note my embouchure knows how to make in a smaller mouthpiece. My tongue level (or voicing as it's called on other instruments) is also something I have muscle memory to do. My trumpet experience only got me into the general ballpark though, it's taking some of practice to fine-tune and develop to get a good sound on a lower brass mouthpiece.

What I did was to change the mouthpiece setpoint up a bit more than usual, something I've already been doing when I get into the higher registers. This is a mechanical crutch to reduce aperture size I know. Once I get up there regularly I find I don't need to change the setpoint as much, as if I somehow learn to make those notes without relying on the crutch as much, but it isn't gone yet so far, meaning I can't use the same setpoint for the entire range yet, although I am thinking it is a goal at least. I am finding that with each setpoint the range of notes I can play is increasing as well as the total usable range, so it seems like I'm on the right track. On trumpet I also play the setpoint game, but it is much reduced, I use the same setpoint for most of my playing although sometimes I slip down a bit for extended low range playing, but other than that it doesn't change much.

Much more pronounced on trumpet however is that when I go low I raise the bell up. Many good trumpet players I know do this, it's about overlap, or the top lip covering the lower lip for higher playing (sometimes called roll-in of the lower lip), and roll-out when you get lower. Don't know if this is a thing on trombone yet although I am doing it, and still working out if it is really the right thing to do.

Wondering how you guys who've been doing it longer have to say, is it eventually possible to play up there and down low with the same setpoint on the same mouthpiece? And is roll-out/roll-in a thing on a larger mouthpiece?

I am currently using a Bach 6 1/2 AL and was fairly surprised to find that after some practice is generally easier to go both higher and lower than with the 12E I started with. So I'm thinking about trying a 5G at some point, which my brother plays professionally.

It is also true that my high trumpet range has always been deficient compared to other trumpet players (a high Bb is my top usable note in a concert), I am thinking the same technique might work to try to get another octave out of trumpet, if that works I'll check back in at some point. I've known other trumpet players who said that the extra size of a trombone mouthpiece allowed them to work out embouchure problems more easily as it was easier to figure things out with the larger space.

Any way I've rambled on too much already.

[Doug Elliott]

Congratulations, it sounds like you're progressing well.
You've touched on some truths and some myths relating to brass playing. Unfortunately I don't have time to go point by point. But keep at it, I think you're basically on the right path.

[harrisonreed]

Whether or not you have to "shift the set point" seems to come down to whether or not you have the correct width of mouthpiece for your embouchure. I think I'm correct in guessing that what you mean by "shift the set point" is physically moving the mouthpiece up or down to a different location on the lips, changing the ratio of upper to lower lip, rather than changing the angle of the aperture or jaw. I used to have to do that to play both low and high. Then I changed to a different inner dimension (rim ID) and those shifts went away.

If I go back to the old mouthpiece, those shifts come back pretty quick. This is not to say that a mouthpiece change is the end all be all, but I'd liken getting the rim ID right to setting the bicycle seat at the correct height for your legs. You still have to practice just as much, but the "bike training" you do after getting that right will be reinforcing, ideally, better mechanics.

[bwilliams]

Congratulations, it sounds like you're progressing well.
You've touched on some truths and some myths relating to brass playing. Unfortunately I don't have time to go point by point. But keep at it, I think you're basically on the right path.

Take the win. Don't over-analyze.
I crossed that Rubicon in early July 1981.
Have fun with it.

[ghmerrill]

Whether or not you have to "shift the set point" seems to come down to whether or not you have the correct width of mouthpiece for your embouchure. ... I used to have to do that to play both low and high. Then I changed to a different inner dimension (rim ID) and those shifts went away.

Yup. Modulo the rest of the mouthpiece, rim size (ID, and possibly contour) is critical. With a 110 rim on my DE piece I can articulate from the double valve and pedal register all the way up above the staff without shifting (or at least without any shifting that I notice). With a 112 rim, I have to shift the mouthpiece to get the same articulation success. It's been something of a lengthy journey to figure that out correctly. It makes a huge difference in playing the variety of jumps I'm often confronted with in big band music between the middle of the staff, the pedal range, and particularly the double valve pitches below the staff. I think that everyone initially has a tendency to think "Bigger" in terms of rim size to solve those problems. But that's not necessarily the way to go.

[kurth83]

Took me a while to figure out what a DE 112 was but I found it.

So ghmerrrill, you are saying you can play way up high and all the way down best on a 1.1" ID bass trombone mouthpiece from Doug Elliot?

If so I find that kind of funny and amazing at the same time. If I try progressively larger mouthpieces (I was going to try a 5G next anyway), will it become obvious that a larger ID is better for me, or will I need to get all the way down to a huge mouthpiece to really know. I did experience improvement from a 12E to a 6 1/2 AL.

[Doug Elliott]

Between the 12E and the 6-1/2AL there's a .040 difference, which would seem dramatic. Another .040 difference to the 104 size that I play. and .020 more to what Harrison uses.

The range of sizes that people use on tenor covers .100 inch, .096 to 1.06 It's the same on bass, 1.06 to 1.16

So you could say "middle of the road" is 101 on tenor and 111 on bass. Large tenor pushes the tenor middle a little bigger.

That pretty much lines up with reality. But what size works best depends on physical factors of your face, what kind of playing you do, what size trombone you play, and your expectations.

[ghmerrill]

So ghmerrrill, you are saying you can play way up high and all the way down best on a 1.1" ID bass trombone mouthpiece from Doug Elliot?

I wouldn't describe it as "way up high". High enough to cover all the parts that I commonly see in big band bass trombone, and many, if not most, of the 3rd parts I may have to play. The 1.1" rim seems to work best for me in terms of covering both pitches I can play and articulation. (A 1.11 rim MIGHT work even better, but I have never gotten around to trying that. )

A wider rim (1.12 or 1.14) makes playing the lowest pitches "easier" in a certain way, but also (in some sense) "sloppy" and less "accurate", and so making playing accurately more fatiguing and more work. I take this to be mostly a matter of matching MY lip/facial structure/attributes to a mouthpiece -- and not thinking that it's the mouthpiece that has some sort of intrinsic capability or power. YOUR results (in terms of specific "mouthpiece size") could be very different because your face isn't my face.

In my own experience, a wider rim can often "seem" like a solution simply because it provides more room for the lips to flap (aka "buzz"), but this may come at the price of the lips simply protruding into the mouthpiece, and that's not what you want since it invites instability and other problems. The real issue may instead be (for example) one of too much pressure of the mouthpiece against your face. But don't listen to me about this, since there are some really experts here to guide you.

Not to mention that the "right size" for you can depend on your own development, degree of practicing, and levels of sensitivity and skill, and as you progress through that, what seems to you to be the "right size" will likely change. But that's me just ruminating on my own experience.

If so I find that kind of funny and amazing at the same time. If I try progressively larger mouthpieces (I was going to try a 5G next anyway), will it become obvious that a larger ID is better for me, or will I need to get all the way down to a huge mouthpiece to really know. I did experience improvement from a 12E to a 6 1/2 AL.

I can't predict what your experience will be and, if I tried to, you probably shouldn't put much store in what some random guy in a forum says. I was mostly just reinforcing the observations that Harrison made, based on my own experience with bass trombone, euphonium, and tuba mouthpieces (but in this case, particularly bass trombone). And maybe to warn a bit about what "improvement" means to you. It's great to be able to easily pop out those pedal tones and the double valve Bs, and Cs, etc. But if you can't do that at tempo with good articulation and sound, you're not where you want to be. Most of that is a lengthy (continuing?) learning process.

[ghmerrill]

But what size works best depends on physical factors of your face, what kind of playing you do, what size trombone you play, and your expectations.

Doug posted this while I was finishing my prior response. So many people (in playing virtually any brass instrument) seem to overlook or forget this simple fact.

[harrisonreed]

The big hang up I think with brass instruments is that there is a kind of Catch-22 inherent in how most of us learn to play.

1. You need to learn basic fundamentals and mechanics so you need to have *some* kind of mouthpiece and instrument to play. I'd venture a guess and say that the mouthpiece most people start with is not the correct size for their face.

2. If you have a mouthpiece that is significantly the wrong size for your embouchure, it will generally necessitate using bad mechanics to achieve the full range, hindering you from learning "good" mechanics. But you can't really know on your own that you're learning bad mechanics or good mechanics. So as you "get better" and diligently practice to improve *musical* technique you also reinforce "bad" *physical* technique.

3. If you learn "bad" mechanics, you will not really be able to evaluate or assess how a mouthpiece will work with your embouchure, even if it is the correct size for your face, because your embouchure doesn't "work" to begin with.

4. Many mouthpieces are still made where the depth and bore changes along with the rim ID, further creating confusion and despair in the process. How many trombonists do you know that started on a 12C, went to a 7C, then 6.5AL, then 5G (large bore upgrade!) then a 4G. Maybe even a 3G. And their physical technique seems to keep improving even as their sound gets woofier and more diffuse. It's a tale as old as time -- they probably needed to be on the 3G rim they now love from the age of 17 or whatever, but also with an appropriate cup and backbore for the first trombone parts they want to play. Not the deep 3G they wound up on. Bolero becomes "blow-ero" on that kind of bass trombone piece.

In the bad old days you wound up with a few savants who claimed they "played the mouthpiece that came in the case". Like the trumpeter Hakan Hardenberger; he claimed at one point that he didn't even know what mouthpiece he used, it was just given to him and he used it. This created a mentality amongst both players and teachers that you could just simply practice your way to being Hakan Hardenberger. In reality, it is almost certainly the case that he and the other savants just lucked out with equipment that fit them from the getgo and were predisposed to the correct mechanics without realizing it when they started -- thus all their practice was building up and reinforcing good technique from an early age.

[ghmerrill]

I think that's what I would have said if I'd known how to say it. (Maybe add a side rant of Oystein Baadsvik's about how tuba players -- particularly students -- way too often rush down the path to mouthpieces that are simply too big for them, thus blow by learning how to play correctly and well, and then stick with it.)

[Posaunus]

4. Many mouthpieces are still made where the depth and bore changes along with the rim ID, further creating confusion and despair in the process.

This mouthpiece size "progression" seems to be largely due to Vincent Bach, who apparently advocated such a system. (Is it the same for Bach trumpet mouthpieces, or are those more "independent" than for trombone?) This is why, in general, I have (thinking outside the Bachs) dropped Bach mouthpieces and gravitated toward Doug Elliott's system where Rim I.D. can be separated from Cup size (depth/volume) and Backbore.

[ghmerrill]

This is why, in general, I have (thinking outside the Bachs) [ ] dropped Bach mouthpieces and gravitated toward Doug Elliott's system where Rim I.D. can be separated from Cup size (depth/volume) and Backbore.

You can also learn a great deal just by doing this, especially in the context of different lead pipes in the mix.

[harrisonreed]

4. Many mouthpieces are still made where the depth and bore changes along with the rim ID, further creating confusion and despair in the process.

This mouthpiece size "progression" seems to be largely due to Vincent Bach, who apparently advocated such a system. (Is it the same for Bach trumpet mouthpieces, or are those more "independent" than for trombone?) This is why, in general, I have (thinking outside the Bachs) dropped Bach mouthpieces and gravitated toward Doug Elliott's system where Rim I.D. can be separated from Cup size (depth/volume) and Backbore.

So I believe the trumpet mouthpieces are less affected by this, if only for the fact that you can get a C cup or B cup across the different numbers. Wasn't Vincent Bach was more interested in trumpet mouthpiece design anyway?

I don't think Bach did a 5C or 5D trombone mouthpiece. Who knows maybe they did.

Doug's system is genius and Doug himself is exceptional. Boggles my mind how many different individual parts he can make.

[kurth83]

Thanks for all this guys, this thread was very helpful.

I've found a setpoint that gives me up to a high F and gets all the way down to pedal F on the 6 1/2 AL, some of that is still a work in progress but it is working to a point. My embouchure is still getting stronger as I progress, so we we'll see where I'm at next year.

I'm looking at mouthpiece options in the meantime, checked out the DE website.

With such astounding success on LB I gave it a try on trumpet today and I got a full step or more improvement, up to a high D or Eb (on trumpet) without really changing anything else. I have heard of high setpoint embouchures on trumpet before but never played with them as they are known to thin out the tone a bit and I like a robust symphonic tone.

So it's time I learn for myself, my lip after four years of comeback is finally strong enough to start trying to improve upon what I could do before. I will say that my trumpet comeback was greatly aided by the baritone, without it I would not be where I am today. I can't explain that, but unless I have baritone in the mix, at my age the trumpet embouchure is weak as a kitten. Didn't have that "problem" when I was younger. I'm loving baritone so it's not a problem for me really.

[BrassSection]

Covering most brass instruments sorta envy you. Baritone player thru high school, then some community band work with French horn, never had a problem hitting high Bb on baritone and later picked up trombone. Used same Bach 12SC MP in both. Switched from baritone to euphonium about 30 years ago. Bach 12SC not a good fit in euph, 12 worked, but not the best. 12SC still go to for tenor trombone. Went to,6.5 AL on euph and down into tuba range and high Bb or beyond easy. I can play trombone and euph staying below F above the staff for weeks. Then without effort high Bb still usable when needed.

French horn, play maybe once every 6 weeks, no sweat hitting high C. (F) Fun playing it, straight F horn, using chord chart, so gotta transpose so notated Bb is actually played as a Bb.

Trumpet, gotta work just to maintain G (F) on top of staff, really gotta dig into practice to hit high C with control. Recently switched from Bach 12 on trumpet to a Pickett 1.5. Huh, high notes coming easier on trumpet now!