Korg TM-60: Accurate?

[JTeagarden]

I have a Korg TM 60 metronome/tuner, and I swear it puts me 15 seconds sharp or flat, depending on where it is in relation to my bell, where ideally would I place this to get an accurate reading?

[WGWTR180]

Is this one of those clip on deals?

[ghmerrill]

I've been using a Korg TM-50 for decades and found it to be highly accurate -- except it's really not capable in a contra-bass range. My first question would be: if this is your only tuner, why do you think it's inaccurate? If you have something to compare it against, how do you know that's more accurate? One quick comparison would be to get one of the (decent? better?) tuner apps on your cell phone and see what that comparison shows (although I have generally distrusted these, though the contemporary ones may be fine).

Also, are you sure you have the Korg set to A=440? If you're not used to using it, it can be fairly easy to push the wrong button at the wrong time and change the pitch to which it's tuning. I've done that.

[JTeagarden]

Mostly because it registers me being 10 seconds flat or sharp, depending on where the tuner is in relationship to the bell, within a a very brief time between readings (just long enough to move the tuner itself).

[ghmerrill]

Well, I'd say there are a number of variables likely to be present in that test. It's difficult to generate any conclusion. If you want a genuine test of the device's accuracy, you might just try it out using a tone generator on your phone (or graph some drone tones off the web). If the tuner passes the tone generator test, then it's measuring the pitch correctly. Otherwise, if you're using a plug-in mic in it, that might make a difference -- though it doesn't sound like you are using a mic.

But I also think that you can expect at least some difference in measurements near a bell as opposed to further away, owing to acoustic effects on the tuner's sensor (e.g. picking up higher or lower overtones more readily?). If you're putting the tuner a short distance directly in front of the bell, I wouldn't be surprised if you're getting different results than setting it on your stand; and I'd expect those differences to be ... er ... different if you moved the tuner around to different positions close to the bell. Otherwise, I don't know. The TM-60 looks like an improved model of the TM-50, and I haven't had any trouble of that sort with mine. But I've never tried to use it particularly close to the bell.

I still use my TM-50 for quick convenience on my stand at home when practicing. But if I'm serious about the precision, or at rehearsals/performances, I'll use one of the D'Addario Cello & Bass tuners because I think they work better and they don't crap out on me below the staff. Also, you can buy three of them for the price of the Korg, though the Korg has features other than tuning. (For trombone, the best place to locate one of these D'Addarios is clipped to the hand slide crook.

But I suppose it's possible that there's something wrong with the TM-60 you have. From what I can see, they're not supposed to be sensitive to placement.

[ghmerrill]

Okay ... Nothing like actual empirical investigation ... I just sat down and actually tested this with my TM-50 sitting on my music stand. I put the bell up to just a few inches from the tuner, and the displayed pitch is sharp (hmmm ... kind of like using a mute)? If I back off -- and particularly if not pointing directly at the stand -- the displayed pitch is not sharp. Duh.

[harrisonreed]

Put the tuner off axis and two feet or more from the bell. I believe it's possible for tuners to be affected by strong overtones which are not the primary note they lock on to. Overtones tend to be "pure" tuning, so they aren't going to play nice with your 12TET tuner. I'm not saying that's what is happening for sure, just that it is a possibility.

Also, what does a "second" measure in tuning? I've never heard of that one before.

(Edit spelling )

[ghmerrill]

I believe it's possible for tuners to be affected by strong overtones ...

Yeah, I think this is what's happening.

[harrisonreed]

The most accurate tuner I've used, besides those really expensive strobe ones, is the simple "Snark" clip on, placed on the slide crook joint.

But you can have the most accurate tuner in the world and it's really actually a very *inaccurate* way of measuring intonation and pitch. Unless you are playing a synth, pitch is relative. Maybe the first tuning note will match the tuner. After that it doesn't really matter. I was actually watching an amazing video by Adam Savage about measuring stuff, in regards to machining things, but I think it applies to pitch too. Using a tuner is like using a tape measure or ruler. You can get really in the weeds and use calipers or a micrometer. All of that is like using a tuner or strobe tuner to measure your note. To go beyond that, you have to measure things against known (or unknown!) values, like gauge blocks on machinist level planes. A dial gauge is far far more accurate than a ruler, but it can't tell you a dimension by itself, just a variance from some other value, known or not. In music you don't need to know how many hz the oboe is, you just need to match it. We need to train our ear to be like a dial gauge.

Drones are the way!

(Edit. Sp.)

[ghmerrill]

The most accurate tuner I've used, besides those really expensive strobe ones, is the simple "Snark" clip on, placed on the slide crook joint.

I carry one of those around in my bag all the time -- but not all Snark tuners are the same. You've got to be a bit careful about the model. Also, the one I carry around doesn't tune the bass range reliably -- but it does support tuning either by contact or its built-in mic. The D'Addario Cello & Bass Tuner is better in several ways, but -- being designed as a tuner for strings -- doesn't have a built-in mic. Also, it "times out" after a while and shuts itself off -- which can be kind of irritating. Maybe string players can't be relied on to remember to turn their tuners off, and are continually running the charge down?

[harrisonreed]

The snark I had let you pick what register it was looking for. But, like I said, pretty moot. For me.

It's a fun way to see how far the pitch rises during a performance. Stick to it at your own risk.

[ghmerrill]

It's a fun way to see how far the pitch rises during a performance. Stick to it at your own risk.

Now if we only had something similar for tempo ...

[JTeagarden]

I think my Bach 50 is just super rich in overtones

[NathanSobieralski]

But you can have the most accurate tuner in the world and it's really actually a very *inaccurate* way of measuring intonation and pitch. Unless you are playing a synth, pitch is relative. Maybe the first tuning note will match the tuner. After that it doesn't really matter. I was actually watching an amazing video by Adam Savage about measuring stuff, in regards to machining things, but I think it applies to pitch too. Using a tuner is like using a tape measure or ruler. You can get really in the weeds and use calipers or a micrometer. All of that is like using a tuner or strobe tuner to measure your note. To go beyond that, you have to measure things against known (or unknown!) values, like gauge blocks on machinist level planes. A dial gauge is far far more accurate than a ruler, but it can't tell you a dimension by itself, just a variance from some other value, known or not. In music you don't need to know how many hz the oboe is, you just need to match it. We need to train our ear to be like a dial gauge.

Metrology is a whole world of its own. I got into voltage measurement precision a few years ago and that's a deep rabbit hole!

[ghmerrill]

There is apparently a sort of "version" (or perhaps "application" or "formulation" would be a better description ) of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (though in the area of wave propagation, and not related to quantum mechanics) regarding the determination of the pitch of notes. Or (ala Heisenberg) to the simultaneous determination of frequency and duration. Best not to go there. Just take the reports of tuners as a usefully close approximation for practical use.

[BigBadandBass]

I’ve got quite a few Korgs, some people collect mouthpieces, for me it’s tuners. I’ve noticed my 50s to be the most accurate down to a pedal D, except the 50T and way up (higher than i can play), and the 60s/70s down to pedal Bb. Sometimes at home i’ll practice with a few of my tuners all in different spots, it’s always the spot the has variance, not the tuner.

Fwiw I really prefer the TMR-50, tuner, metronome and recorder all in one small not connected to the internet package