TromboneChat

The other day I was curious to find how vocalists perform the Bordogni vocalises. I found a ton of brass players (mostly trombonists) performing them but no singers which surprised me. Does anyone have recordings of people singing the Bordognis?

That's because they are awful vocalises. Singers have much better music to sing. I think it's worth listening to them sing that.

It's because they're exercises and not something to be performed. From a singer's perspective, that would be the equivalent of asking why brass players never perform Kopprasch studies. Vocalises are also, ironically, not vocal music per se. They're just exercises singers would use to train pretty much the same aspects of their voices as what we use them for, which has nothing inherently "vocal" about it. Of all the music singers sing, these are pretty much the worst that we trombonists could collectively have chosen to use to train our "vocal" playing. They're great tools to work on certain parts of our playing, but they have nothing to do with playing "vocally".

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Feb 18, 2026 8:09 pm That's because they are awful vocalises. Singers have much better music to sing. I think it's worth listening to them sing that.

Called out for what they are! I think if your goal is to make Italian women circa 1840 swoon, get really good at these.

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 12:39 am It's because they're exercises and not something to be performed.

Yes.

An aside: It’s odd sometimes how we can listen to another brass player and think, “Wow! So musical for a technical piece!,” when another musician might simply remark, “Huh. Good technique.”

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 12:39 am From a singer's perspective, that would be the equivalent of asking why brass players never perform Kopprasch studies. Vocalises are also, ironically, not vocal music per se. They're just exercises singers would use to train pretty much the same aspects of their voices as what we use them for, which has nothing inherently "vocal" about it.

I think of them as technical and stylistic challenges: How do you express something musical (an emotion) in a late Romantic style (the “dominant” style of “European Art Music”), while maintaining a characteristic and captivating sound, when the piece contains challenges of range, articulation, dynamics, rhythm, flexibility, etc. (i.e., all the parameters of sound)?

Similarly, the Cimera 55 Studies (and some of his other pieces) have the same sort of challenge, except the style is late Romantic almost Tin Pan Alley style. Some of them sound very old fashioned, but they’re useful because they’re brief, and have a limited range. (Range can be extended, like the Bordogni etudes, by substituting clefs, octaves, etc.).

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 12:39 am Of all the music singers sing, these are pretty much the worst that we trombonists could collectively have chosen to use to train our "vocal" playing. They're great tools to work on certain parts of our playing, but they have nothing to do with playing "vocally".

What do you suggest to help trombonists learn to play “vocally”?

The venerable Bordogni Vocalises remain a key tool of elite vocal pedagogues to this day.

Marco Bordogni's vocalise nr. 1



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Kbiggs wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 10:35 am What do you suggest to help trombonists learn to play “vocally”?

So vocalises serve the same purpose to singers as they do to us. None of the things they address are unique or even particularly specific to the voice: the challenges of legato and of navigating different parts of our range, while having sustained and very connected sound production are not "vocal" in nature, they are shared by most if not all instruments. I think Rochut/Bordogni is a valuable pedagogical tool for us, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that it represents what singing is, at its core.

I imagine we all agree that "playing vocally" means imitating the voice. But what exactly should we aim to imitate? The voice has one specific thing that defines it and sets it apart, that is absolutely unique to it, that no other instrument has: text. And with its ability to render text, the voice can produce an infinitely larger variety of articulations than any other musical instrument. So to me, imitating the voice is not about playing legato with a very sustained sound (which many instruments can do, and which the voice very rarely actually does). It's about the exact opposite: playing with a lot of different articulations and note shapes.

So my answer to the question is that I think we should be playing a ton of (texted) vocal music, and try to go as deep as we can in rendering the accentuation patterns of words, the dynamic shape of not just longer sentences but also of words, of individual syllables, of individual notes, and even of specific portions of individual notes, and the way notes and syllables transition into each other depending on their place in the word and phrase and on the consonants involved. Then you begin accumulating a vocabulary of articulations and phrasing ideas, developing habits that are then applied to untexted music as well.

Not singing Rochut, but I adore listening to Heather Harper sing. Definitely has inspired certain aspects of my trombone playing.