Community Band/Orchestra Protocol

[Mamaposaune]

I'm looking for opinions on this, really asking for an adult student of mine who is playing 2nd trombone in a community orchestra. It is not a question on how to play something, but more a question about how much a principal player should intervene to assist a section mate.
For those who currently, or have in the past, played in community groups with one player per part, have you experienced a situation where the 3 parts play at separate times, and one player on a lower part is struggling to play their part as written? (The piece in question is the 1st movement of Schmann's 4th Symphony) My student is practicing hard on playing soft, sustained, and exposed F#'s, G's and A's above the staff, (written in the 2nd part only) but is not 100% consistent yet. It's 16 bars or so, background behind the strings and woodwinds. I suggested that there is no shame in just taking it down an octave if the conductor is OK with it.
The principal player in the group has decided to double the part with him in the octave written, telling him to play along but down an octave. My student would prefer to not have his part doubled, but is hesitant to speak up. He needs to build confidence, and I think his pride is taking a blow.
The community groups that I've played in have generally been at a high enough level that the players are competent and solid on their parts, so it would be unnecessary for one player to cover for another.
Just wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation as my student, on either side, and how they handled it.

[JohnL]

We had a somewhat similar situation in our community orchestra a couple seasons back. Our second trombone was really struggling with the little solo bits on Scheherazade. We gave him as much time as we thought we could, but he still didn't have it two weeks before the concert, so the principal trombone took the solos (with the approval of the conductor). I didn't like having to do it, but he was really struggling, and one thing I've learned about that orchestra is that if someone really lays an egg, it can mess with people's minds and the next thing you know, you've got a train wreck.

[BGuttman]

If you really want to see a part where 2nd and 1st need to synch, look at the Sleigh Ride (4th movement) of the Lt. Kije Suite by Prokofiev.

In community bands you generally give everybody a shot at playing their part, but if a player can't hack it you arrange for coverage. But keep encouraging the player to learn the part and if he demonstrates he can play it you let him. Some peoples' egos can get in the way, and you have to explain that the overall performance is what matters most.

[timothy42b]

Maybe a compromise?

Double it in the octave written during rehearsal, with the understanding that it will be dropped an octave in performance?

[JTeagarden]

People join amateur ensembles for different reasons: some for the social aspect, some to practice sight reading, still others for the chance to improve their ensemble playing, others to act as mentors to younger players, some really like the music itself.

Regardless of the members' individual motivations, I would like to think that everyone wants things to sound as good as possible in performance, and assuming the music director/conductor is OK with delegating such matters to the section leaders, fully reasonable for the section leader to make the call for the sake of an improved performance.

Struggle as a musician is actually a great thing, it suggests the possibility of growth, but biting off more than you can currently chew doesn't do anyone any favors.

Unless the section leader is abrasive and lacking in "bedside manner," it seems like a non-issue: being told you're not cutting it just demonstrates where the bar is relative to your current ability, and we could use more of this kind of clear-eyed feedback in the US, not less.

[MahlerMusic]

Man, I’ve absolutely been there. For me, it was Mozart’s Requiem—I was second trombone. I was a solid player, but my high range just wasn’t solid enough. Of all my years in community orchestras, the low point was playing the Tuba Mirum. I managed okay, but deep down I knew I should’ve set my ego aside and asked the first trombonist to take that solo. He could’ve switched from his alto and play it on my tenor.
To this day, I still can’t listen to the Requiem without feeling that sting. To make matters worse, the conductor didn’t acknowledge me at the end—he pointed to all the soloists, and I was left sitting there. He did apologize at the next rehearsal, and I got my recognition then, but the moment had passed.
If I could go back in time, I’d tell my younger self to let the first trombone take that passage. But knowing me, I wouldn’t have listened—I’d just practice harder and convince myself I could pull it off. And in the end, I’d probably still end up in the same place, disappointed with myself.

Edit: also with that part in 1st movement of Schmann's 4th Symphony, the Bass trombone is already play the same part at D an octave lower. Like many Community Orchestras you may not have a Bass player but if you do not it would be very natural for the 2nd player to play the Bass part and for the 1st to play the 2nd part for the 16 bars after D.

[Bonearzt]

Man, I’ve absolutely been there. For me, it was Mozart’s Requiem—I was second trombone. I was a solid player, but my high range just wasn’t solid enough. Of all my years in community orchestras, the low point was playing the Tuba Mirum. I managed okay, but deep down I knew I should’ve set my ego aside and asked the first trombonist to take that solo. He could’ve switched from his alto and play it on my tenor.
To this day, I still can’t listen to the Requiem without feeling that sting. To make matters worse, the conductor didn’t acknowledge me at the end—he pointed to all the soloists, and I was left sitting there. He did apologize at the next rehearsal, and I got my recognition then, but the moment had passed.
If I could go back in time, I’d tell my younger self to let the first trombone take that passage. But knowing me, I wouldn’t have listened—I’d just practice harder and convince myself I could pull it off. And in the end, I’d probably still end up in the same place, disappointed with myself.

Self criticism is a mark of a good player! But can also be paralyzing!!
I can think of almost every instance where I stepped on my own nuts, sometimes pretty prominently!
But that's how we progress, at least most of us mortals!

IF you think you "managed" ok, then you probably did play it ok, in spite of the conductor's asinine actions!
THAT was petty!!

Back to the original post, I think JT summed it up pretty well!
it does depend on the group you're playing in.

[hyperbolica]

I once covered the 2nd solo in Russian Easter. The conductor asked me to and the 2nd player said he was ok with it.
Community music still requires you to be an adult. You have to take setbacks in stride. Building confidence has to happen before you get the solo, not as a result of.

[AtomicClock]

I can think of exactly zero times I didn't have the high note at the first rehearsal, but gained it before the concert. Range grows slower than that.

[JTeagarden]

My "Bolero moment" was in a big band, the high C in the solo part on Dorsey's "Song of India:" from my experience, this partial is actually pretty easy to hit dead cold (much easier than the 2 partials below it), and I had played it with no issues dozens and dozens of times.

Then I cacked it one time in performance, and then again the next time, and then the next time, and the band leader gave the solo to the lead trombonist, who was an old Vegas guy, sometimes you develop the yips, and it takes on a life of its own.