Medium bore

[wesleyrubim]

When it comes to a medium bore horn, which one do you choose? And why?

[dukesboneman]

For over 20 some odd years I played a Conn 78H (Had 3 of them). That was all I played until I got my hands on a 32H. I guess that`s a 1/2 medium bore (.500/.522 Bore)
Then I started realizing that the sound I was hearing in my head wasn`t the sound coming out the big end of the horn. All the people I really listened to were playing Bachs , Watrous , Fontana Herwig.
So I switched to a Bach 36. I now have a Mount Vernon Lt36 and love it

[Briande]

I’ve had a King 3B+ w/f since the 1980s. That horn will do just about anything. Change the mouthpiece and change the use. 7c jazz. 5g concert bands. It’s the horn I take when I don’t know what I’m going to be playing until I get there.

[hyperbolica]

First depends on how you define medium bore. 508? 525? 508/525? 525/547? I use 525 as my definition. There is a lot to love about almost all medium bores, but they are all different. These are the ones I've owned or at least played:

- '68 88h w/sl2525 slide - this turns out to be my favorite, although I've often wished I had an 8" bell to go with that. It sounds just right. It's the right combination of light and powerful. I replaced my 79h with it because the sound is flexible enough to get the bright and the dark. I kept it instead of the Benge because I already had a stock 88h, and the sl2525 slide was a no brainer. I'm easily prejudiced toward this, since I grew up on an Elkie 88h.

- '58 8h w/sl2525 slide - This is the 78h with a big bell and without any of the quirks. I love to play this instrument every chance I get. Not nearly often enough.

- 79h - One that I had and kept for a long time was a lot darker than my 88h, but it was very nimble and it had a wide slide, which is nice. Great for small orchestras and lighter stuff. Works great for brass quintet or tbone quartet. I used mine for everything for about 10 years. I think I've owned 4 of these, one of which was a flawless silver plated model. Wow.

- Rath 3 - Very nice horn, but maybe a little closer to large bore feel/sound. This has been my "if I ever won the lottery" horn for a while.

- M&W - I played the first medium bore that he made. It was really nice, open blow. I had to put it down to save my marriage. To me it felt like the nicest 36b I've ever played.

- Shires custom 525 bore - I paid for this new directly from the factory, and took delivery. When it arrived, the bell was physically deformed in a really odd way (not a shipping accident), and there was no practical difference between it and a 547 instrument. I sent it back for a refund, and didn't reorder. Very dissatisfying transaction. This is probably why I'm kind of down on Shires in general.

- 78h - I've always contended that the 78h is different from the 79h. It can be brutally bright when you push it, where the 79h doesn't do that. I think this is mainly due to the weight of the valve and associated tubing on the 79h. The slides are different because of the presence of the trigger on the 79h. I've tried to love 78h, but after buying 4-5 of them, and loving the idea on paper, I just can't get down with the sound. Very weird because the 79h is one of my favorites of all time.

-36b - These can range from meh to chocolatey. The bad ones were just ok, but the great ones you just can't put down. If I weren't such a Conn guy, I'd be all over 36bs. John Swallow played these a lot, and was a big influence on me.

- Benge 175f - These are really great instruments. Probably the greatest middle-of-the-road medium bore trombone ever made. A little brighter than the 79h due to the King influence (round crooks). If I was stuck on a desert island with this horn, I'd be happy. I wish this were in modern production.

- King 3b+F - This plays like a small bore, with a lot of zip, but also doesn't get backed up on you. It's too bright for say an orchestra. You might be able to use it for big band 1 or especially 2. It's a more open version of a 3b. Definitely closer to small bore sound than large bore. I've bought 2 and they were both great. Both were buckled across the valve knuckles (probably because these get marched a lot by high schools). I use mine for brass quintet. I hate the way it looks, but I love the way I sound on it.

- Reynolds - I don't remember the exact specs of this. It's nice, but not nicer than anything above. Maybe a little non-descript. Kind of like playing a Selmer Bolero after playing a 3B.

Others that don't quite qualify:

- 32h - 500/522 - I go back and forth on these, from "I wanna play this all day long" to "what is this really for?" It's great for light orchestral pops stuff, maybe solos, maybe 2nd in a big band, maybe lead in a concert band.

- Yamaha 500/525 family (356, 455, 456) - I wanna like these, but they just lack something in the sound. On paper, these have the right stuff, but they're just a bit dull. Yes, they do everything they should, but they don't have that feeling of inspiration about them. A lot of people like them, and one of these would be a fine instrument for just about anything, unless you were spoiled by something better.

- Olds Recording - 495/510 - This is my go-to outdoor horn. You can't sell them for anywhere near what they are worth, so I just keep it. It plays great. The slide might not be perfect, but I love the sound. Big dark smoky sound with the fast articulation of a small bore. Even though everyone seems to love them, I still think they are underrated by a lot of younger people who easily get distracted by "shiny" shit. Really beautifully constructed, engraved, gusseted. A bit heavier than a lot of horns, and massively durable.

- Getzen 3508 - 500/508 - Specwise, this isn't medium bore at all, but it plays like an 88h jr. It's light, it's open, has a great range, You could put a big mouthpiece/leadpipe in it and step into just about any role with it you might imagine.

[walldaja]

King 607F with Shires M1 leadpipe. When I had the original leadpipe it was meh, but the Shires pipe opens it right up. Would like to have a King3B+ but the 607 is pretty much there.

[Finetales]

I technically have 3 .525s at the moment, though 2 of them are in pieces at the shop.

The one that is intact is my Willson 311TA with Caidex G valve. I love it! It has a lovely colorful sound that has the perfect heft and color for chamber situations, especially small orchestras where I'm the only trombone. And the G valve is really nice to have. One of the coolest horns I own.

The 2 in pieces are 2 King 607s, which are in the long process of getting added to a cornucopia of King parts to make a modular 3B/607 with 0, 1, or 2 valves, 3 slide bore options, and multiple bells to choose from. I do miss having one available, as the 607 (or 3B+F) is the perfect instrument for a lot of work I do, especially lower parts in street brass bands that need to both play typical small tenor high/loud stuff but also occasionally sound like a bass trombone. The 607/3B+F is the prototypical "big small horn" .525, opposite the more common "small big horn" type. I've somehow found space for both in for the work I do, enough that not having either sometimes leads to some head-scratchery when deciding what horn to bring for a gig.

My favorite medium bores that I've tried but don't own:

- Rath R3F w/nickel bell
- Shires custom .525, all red brass, no valve
- Conn 78H SPEC
- Y-Fort YSL-260GL

Medium bores I'd love to try:

- Williams 8/9
- Romeo Adaci .525, if such a thing exists
- M&W 336
- Lawler Big Boy
- Bach 34
- Yamaha YSL-844/8440/8440G

[Burgerbob]

Technically none, though I've owned 4 Bach 36s, two Conns (76H and 78H Special) and three Kings.

I like all of them but never end up actually playing them in the real world. I'd love an excuse to!

[SwissTbone]

A Bach 36c. When I got it, it was in very bad shape, especially the valve section. So I sent it to Matthew Walker and he worked his magic on it and obviously put a new valve on it.

Now it's probably my favorite trombone of my entire collection. I can play it with or without the valve - doesn't really make a big difference. I can make it sound plenty big for most of the stuff I do so nobody forces me to use a large bore. (I use my Y-Fort when a large bore is needed or socially more accepted).

Why a medium bore? I think it can do pretty much everything I need with half the work of a bigger horn and I keep the flexibility for more modern or jazzy stuff.

[Posaunus]

In my search for a medium-bore trombone, I found a 1958 Reynolds Contempora Model 35 (0.520" bore, F-attachment) which I happily played for several years (mostly chamber and big band). Then I acquired an even nicer 1976 Bach 36B (0.525" bore), which played beautifully (mostly orchestra / concert band). But I then stumbled on a near-mint (closet case) 1970 Elkhart Conn 79H (0.522" bore) that (coming from an Elkhart Conn 88H background) I “had to have.” It turns out that the 79H is not really like an 88H, and is a little quirky (different slide positions), but I fell in love with it, and reluctantly sold the Contempora and the 36B. I’m now always on the lookout for opportunities to play the 79H. With the right mouthpiece, it fits into several spots – especially chamber music, solo with piano, small orchestra / 19th century literature, …

[Mamaposaune]

My go-to for a .525 medium bore is a Bach 36B from the early 70's with a yellow brass bell and lightweight slide.
My husband, keeping up the Bach-Conn debate we've had for years, likes his 78H and 79H, both from around 1970, that period between Elkhart and Abilene.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

My Williams 8/9 have been my go to horns for years. I’ve since changed to a pseudo Williams/Shires hybrid. 9” Burbank Williams bell with an older Shires-Greenhoe valve set with a .525” NLW slide. I recently switched to Brad’s MV 36 leadpipe in seamed copper and this horn is absolutely phenomenal.

[EriKon]

My Williams 8/9 have been my go to horns for years. I’ve since changed to a pseudo Williams/Shires hybrid. 9” Burbank Williams bell with an older Shires-Greenhoe valve set with a .525” NLW slide. I recently switched to Brad’s MV 36 leadpipe in seamed copper and this horn is absolutely phenomenal.

If you want to get rid of a 9 (or even another 8), you know how to contact me I'll happily take one of those

[MrHCinDE]

Like many others it seems, I’ve been on the medium bore roundabout a few times.

I’ve owned and sold a 3B+, a Conn SL2525 with 8H/88H, an Edwards .525” slide for my Bach 42 setup and a few others. Seems I’ll never learn though, having sold all of those I bought a 1940s Conn 78H SPEC (all red brass) and a Bach 36B.

After a recent slide job, the Conn has become one of my absolute favourite horns, so much so that I’m contemplating getting a valve section added to it. Similarly to the 3B+ I used to own, it is an armchair ride to play, especially if I haven’t played much recently. The sound is just beautiful with very little effort, leaving room to concentrate on everything else. The wider slide is just more comfortable for me than the 3B+ and the Conn has a richer sound in the lower register.

The 36B I’m only keeping for now since it has the easiest high D I’ve played on any horn. Not sure why but it just jumps out. I know this is ridiculous but I have a couple of gigs lined up I might appreciate that in.

[slidefunk]

I love my Shires .525. It's easy to play, gets a great sound and is super versatile. It's been well suited to musicals, headliners/cabarets, light orchestral work, quartets, big bands, straight ahead jazz, rock, funk, afrobeat... Pretty much everything I've thrown at it. The perfect commercial horn. Specs are as follows:

7YLW 8 Bell
T25NLW Slide
Dual-Bore Valve
M1 Leadpipe

[jacobgarchik]

Mostly a plain old 80s Bach 36 that I got in 1989. Had a 1970 Elkhart Conn 78h and played for a while and sold it.
Also have enjoyed a 20s Conn 82h, a 20s Conn 78h with a 8 1/2 bell.
Currently using my 80s 36 as my flying horn as it has a screw bell and for in town gigs using a 70s Bach 36.
Have yet to try any new horn, like, basically never.

[TromboneSam]

I love my Bach 36B for the sound and versatility. It's a really great one.

I am now playing a Yamaha YSL-646 w/ a screw bell. It is more compact for the road, is very easy to play, and has a great sound. Lots of warmth from the 8.5" bell but still lots of clarity and is very nimble. It’s perfect for a pit work.

These horns can not only play jazz, classical, latin, and brass band stuff, but they can also blend well in each of these settings.

[Pezza]

I love my Bach 36K. Wish I still had my 36B from 1991!
The good ones are great. Even the "bad" ones are OK.
Does everything, even bass in an emergency!

I've had a Yamaha YSL456A. Was ok. Brighter sound than I wanted. Easy to play. Great intermediate horn, but nothing special. Didn't like blending within a section of Bach's!

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

My Williams 8/9 have been my go to horns for years. I’ve since changed to a pseudo Williams/Shires hybrid. 9” Burbank Williams bell with an older Shires-Greenhoe valve set with a .525” NLW slide. I recently switched to Brad’s MV 36 leadpipe in seamed copper and this horn is absolutely phenomenal.

If you want to get rid of a 9 (or even another 8), you know how to contact me I'll happily take one of those

[Mamaposaune]

I love my Bach 36B for the sound and versatility. It's a really great one.

I am now playing a Yamaha YSL-646 w/ a screw bell. It is more compact for the road, is very easy to play, and has a great sound. Lots of warmth from the 8.5" bell but still lots of clarity and is very nimble. It’s perfect for a pit work.

These horns can not only play jazz, classical, latin, and brass band stuff, but they can also blend well in each of these settings.

Totally agree with this! I almost forgot, but I had one for awhile and it really is a great horn. When I bought my 36B, used but in v.g. shape 15-20 years ago (I had a student in mind, but he never even saw it...) I sold both the 646 and the N.Y. Bach 36B I had been playing.

[Dennis]

I've still got the Bach 36B that was my HS graduation gift from my parents, chosen from half-a-dozen that Zep's in Burbank had.

The thing to understand about the Bach 36 is that it's small big horn, as opposed to a big small horn (King 3B+, Lawler Big Boy, the one Williams 8 I've played). Bach 34s are reputed to be big small horns, too. VB's design description (the perfect orchestral tenor, and as long as he was alive Bach listed the 36 in its catalog as a large bore instrument rather a medium-large) bears out that it was intended to be a "big" horn.

It's a decent choice for a musical theater pit (it's better for opera than for Sondheim or Rodger & Hammerstein), but my 3B is honestly a better choice for Broadway shows. It's a great choice to cover tenor chairs in orchestras, or first trombone in wind band music. It's definitely not a great choice to cover the lead or jazz chair in a big band. It's okay on the 3rd book, but there are better choices around.

[Finetales]

Yep - either type ("big small horn" or "small big horn") can do a lot of things well and there's a lot of crossover there, but they are still pretty different. I don't think I've played a medium bore that is truly right in the middle. The closest I've tried might be a fabulous silver-plated Reynolds .520"/8.5" horn a friend has. I have first dibs on that horn if she ever decides to sell it!

[mrdeacon]

My Williams 8/9 have been my go to horns for years. I’ve since changed to a pseudo Williams/Shires hybrid. 9” Burbank Williams bell with an older Shires-Greenhoe valve set with a .525” NLW slide. I recently switched to Brad’s MV 36 leadpipe in seamed copper and this horn is absolutely phenomenal.

Hey Drew what size mouthpiece do you use with the horn? Do you stay on the smaller 6 1/2AL size with that setup or do you use a larger piece?

[EOlson9]

I play a King 2125F (3b+f) from the early 80s. Love that horn. Only other medium bore I've owned was a Bach Omega about 30 years ago. Can't say much about it because i don't remember it all that well.

[EriKon]

I've still got the Bach 36B that was my HS graduation gift from my parents, chosen from half-a-dozen that Zep's in Burbank had.

The thing to understand about the Bach 36 is that it's small big horn, as opposed to a big small horn (King 3B+, Lawler Big Boy, the one Williams 8 I've played). Bach 34s are reputed to be big small horns, too. VB's design description (the perfect orchestral tenor, and as long as he was alive Bach listed the 36 in its catalog as a large bore instrument rather a medium-large) bears out that it was intended to be a "big" horn.

It's a decent choice for a musical theater pit (it's better for opera than for Sondheim or Rodger & Hammerstein), but my 3B is honestly a better choice for Broadway shows. It's a great choice to cover tenor chairs in orchestras, or first trombone in wind band music. It's definitely not a great choice to cover the lead or jazz chair in a big band. It's okay on the 3rd book, but there are better choices around.

Williams 8 is definitely a small big horn. Most of those have an 8,5 inch bell, some even with 9 inches. My Burbank Williams 8 plays and sounds much more like a very easy going large bore with some more bite once you open up the dynamics.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

My Williams 8/9 have been my go to horns for years. I’ve since changed to a pseudo Williams/Shires hybrid. 9” Burbank Williams bell with an older Shires-Greenhoe valve set with a .525” NLW slide. I recently switched to Brad’s MV 36 leadpipe in seamed copper and this horn is absolutely phenomenal.

Hey Drew what size mouthpiece do you use with the horn? Do you stay on the smaller 6 1/2AL size with that setup or do you use a larger piece?

Hey Philip! I use an AR 25.70 with the 65 throat paired to a 65L backbore. Works phenomenally well with these medium bore Williams’ as they can be mouthpiece finicky.

[johntarr]

Has anyone ever used a medium bore with a large shank lead pipe for a more “legit” sound, and then switching to a small shank for a more “jazz” sound? Is there much difference between the two lead pipe sizes? I’m wondering if having two lead pipes and their respective mouthpieces would expand the versatility of a medium bore horn.

Thanks for any of your thoughts,

John

[hyperbolica]

There is a Conn pipe called X that takes a large shank mouthpiece. I had one but never used it because it made my 525 feel like a 547. It sounds like thats what you're looking for. I used it with a sl2525 slide. The Conn leadpipes are comparatively cheap, and you can get them from Hickey's.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I was fortunate enough to nab this leadpipe that Brad was selling:
viewtopic.php?t=41402

With this pipe in my .525” NLW Shires slide, it definitely feels and sounds more like a .547” horn without the extra work. I have this magical MV 4G that I picked up fairly recently and being able to use that with a .525” slide is a game changer.

[pbone3b]

There is a Conn pipe called X that takes a large shank mouthpiece. I had one but never used it because it made my 525 feel like a 547. It sounds like thats what you're looking for. I used it with a sl2525 slide. The Conn leadpipes are comparatively cheap, and you can get them from Hickey's.

I tried the X pipe (large shank) on my SL2547, but it didn't do much for me. Kind of undermined the conical/dual-bore feel I like about it.

[hyperbolica]

I tried the X pipe (large shank) on my SL2547, but it didn't do much for me. Kind of undermined the conical/dual-bore feel I like about it.

Yeah, that's essentially why I didn't use it. It kind of negated the reason for having the slide in the first place. But if this guy is trying to make his 525 sound/feel like a 547, it might be just the ticket.

[atopper333]

I tried the X pipe (large shank) on my SL2547, but it didn't do much for me. Kind of undermined the conical/dual-bore feel I like about it.

Yeah, that's essentially why I didn't use it. It kind of negated the reason for having the slide in the first place. But if this guy is trying to make his 525 sound/feel like a 547, it might be just the ticket.

I think you’re on to something there. I’m not as experienced as a lot of people here, so I’d take this with a grain of salt.

I had an 8HT with an SL2547 for a time and mainly used the X pipe. It sounded more substantial with that pipe, but I felt more resistance which afforded me what I felt was more control which makes sense given my level of experience.

[pbone3b]

I tried the X pipe (large shank) on my SL2547, but it didn't do much for me. Kind of undermined the conical/dual-bore feel I like about it.

Yeah, that's essentially why I didn't use it. It kind of negated the reason for having the slide in the first place. But if this guy is trying to make his 525 sound/feel like a 547, it might be just the ticket.

True, and only $39, so not too risky.
https://www.hickeys.com/search/products/sku030727.php

[Finetales]

Clearly a medium shank pipe is the ultimate solution for a .525!

I kid...but that would be an interesting experiment.

[johntarr]

I tried the X pipe (large shank) on my SL2547, but it didn't do much for me. Kind of undermined the conical/dual-bore feel I like about it.

Yeah, that's essentially why I didn't use it. It kind of negated the reason for having the slide in the first place. But if this guy is trying to make his 525 sound/feel like a 547, it might be just the ticket.

This guy is pondering the idea of having just one trombone and he likes to play a both kinds of music . So my question is, would a medium bore horn be more versatile with a two lead pipe/mouthpiece set up?

[hyperbolica]

This guy is pondering the idea of having just one trombone and he likes to play a both kinds of music . So my question is, would a medium bore horn be more versatile with a two lead pipe/mouthpiece set up?

Yes, definitely. Make sure he gets the Conn X leadpipe, maybe in addition to another pipe.

[salsabone]

Just for stupid thoughts...how's about Rynoldd Argento .520 bore!

[Burgerbob]

People talk about these Reynolds but I have never seen one for sale or otherwise. Do they really exist??

[Chazzer69]

People talk about these Reynolds but I have never seen one for sale or otherwise. Do they really exist??

Assuming you mean the Argenta from the prior post, they do. I have one.

Edit
Also: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 667120287/

[hyperbolica]

People talk about these Reynolds but I have never seen one for sale or otherwise. Do they really exist??

They exist. They aren't better than things that are more readily available. Interesting, but not better.