Bracing location

[BrianJohnston]

I’m looking to start a discussion on bracing location and how this could affect the playability of a horn positively or negatively. Specifically, if bracing is a bit too far up or down on some spots of the horn can this effect the sound and response, or is this negligible? Any related & or added information is much appreciated.

[hornbuilder]

The care with which the whole assembly is built is much more important than how much/where bracing may be.

[WGWTR180]

Which instrument? What brace?? Unlimited possibilities.

[hyperbolica]

You can't always control the overall construction quality unless you have each of your horns totally rebuilt, which is impractical. But you can move or remove individual braces. The placement of a single brace (or any weight or structural part) can totally kill an instrument's response. The only way to really know this info is to do a vibration analysis of the instrument in multiple modes. Place joints/braces/weight/structure at common nodes for each note. Again, impractical.

I removed 4 braces from a Holton tr181 recently (the image of which ones I removed is on here somewhere), and I just removed braces that seemed structurally redundant to me. It took the horn from feeling somewhat dead to a "nice" feel. Absolutely not scientific, but it was an improvement. If you have the ability to unsolder and resolder each brace a couple dozen times, you might find an improved location for that brace.

[Blabberbucket]

The care with which the whole assembly is built is much more important than how much/where bracing may be.

100% truth

I think there is something to not bracing on the neckpipe and bell, as well, which is what you tend to see from most modern makers: "Edge Bracing," "Sonic Suspension," "Angle Braces," etc.

[elmsandr]

So, my opinions are going to be mostly around Bach based horns; 42,45,&50.

My 50 and 45 horns… I’ve moved the main bell brace to align with the span of some more modular horns. They are now mostly with the main bell brace a little closer to the rim than factory, with a spread between the tuning slide ferrule and main bell brace really close to Shires spacing. This seems fine; it is a minor tweak, less than 1/2” maybe closer to 1/4. Minimal, and done with care it seems to work fine.

Now my 42s… my current setup is all based on a straight 42 spacing. If I had to do it again, I’d make it similar to the above, not quite 42B positioning, but closer to that. Probably like the A47 spacing. Similar to above, this seems to work OK for playing characteristics, but having to make a couple of offset braces or having levers to adjust around braces takes more work than I want when making stupid things to work with this setup. I do feel that one particular flare played better when I had the main brace farther back, but I don’t have a neckpipe or valve to put it back there, and it isn’t bad by any means, maybe I just need to take it apart and reassemble it.

I’m sure there is an optimal position sonically; however I am also sure that assembly variance and ESPECIALLY playing variance is far greater than the different of a couple of mm, so I want that position to be best for making the modular elements work.

Cheers,
Andy

[hornbuilder]

I contend that bracing attached to the bell and gooseneck is fine, if done correctly. There is already one pretty large diamond flange attached to the bell on most horns, which no one seems to complain about! My main bass, a single valve, traditional wrap, has braces on both bell and gooseneck, and it plays great! I have done several other horns with bracing on the bell/gooseneck, with no obvious degradation in performance. Just like open wrap valve loops, "edge bracing" has become a marketing dog whistle, IMO, and makers include these features because that is what the marketplace demands

[ryant]

I had an old corporation era 42b that had the small braces connecting the f attachment to the bell removed. I no longer own that horn, but have a newer 42b with those braces still attached. How hard would it be to remove them myself? Am I just asking for trouble?

[blast]

I'm not going to get into Holton 181s and the like. A simple mod on Elkhart 62H and 60H basses.... blow out the solder between the F valve tube and the bell, then unsolder the small brace between the J bend and the F attachment and move it up and down until the horn rings better and is more slotted. Has worked every time so far. Just shows what can happen. Many older horns have braces placed for optimal response anyway.

[paysonmcc]

I've heard Max Thein talk about strategically placing braces where there are nodes in the sound wave. This makes sense and I think that is what Blast is referring to with the Conn bass braces. I'm not sure if you could measure where these nodes are expected to be, or if you just experiment trial and error.

[brassmedic]

I had an old corporation era 42b that had the small braces connecting the f attachment to the bell removed. I no longer own that horn, but have a newer 42b with those braces still attached. How hard would it be to remove them myself? Am I just asking for trouble?

The braces aren't just for sound. You have to have something actually holding the instrument together or it's going to be extremely fragile and prone to damage. If it's traditional wrap, there's not much holding the bell section together without those braces - just the valve knuckle and the tuning slide (which is removable and not a rigid connection). The open wrap at least has a second cross brace.

[brassmedic]

I've heard Max Thein talk about strategically placing braces where there are nodes in the sound wave. This makes sense and I think that is what Blast is referring to with the Conn bass braces. I'm not sure if you could measure where these nodes are expected to be, or if you just experiment trial and error.

Yeah, I've heard people claim to know exactly where the "nodes" are, but I have never seen anyone provide an actual measurement. I suspect the best anyone can do is trial and error.

[Doug Elliott]

I've heard Gerhard Meinl talk about that at tuba conferences. In designing new tuba models, which are considerably more variable than trombones, he would assemble the tubing with no braces and then feel the vibration of the tubing to see where the nodes were. And then of course they change when playing different notes and using valves. But I guess with experience you learn how it all relates to favorable bracing locations.

[hornbuilder]

Doug. Yes, I have heard him say similar things re bracing. I asked him about the change of nodal positions on different tube lengths, and how that affects potential bracing. His answer was "non-conclusive".