Small/Medium Bore Bach swap Bell/Slide

[BrianJohnston]

Does anyone here have experience with swapping small/medium bore bach parts to achieve a middle ground jazz/small orchestral horn?

For example: A Bach 16 Bell with a 34 slide?

I'm looking for something that can do orchestral pops/jazz, downsized 2nd trombone, and maybe the occasional big band gig.

Obviously I'm going to try a bunch of things out to see what works, but I was wondering if there is already a path that tends to work. thanks.

[Burgerbob]

The small bore and large bore setups are so different that they're not really compatible. The slide lengths are the problem.

I'd just play a 36 or a 16

[BrianJohnston]

The small bore and large bore setups are so different that they're not really compatible. The slide lengths are the problem.

I'd just play a 36 or a 16

Thanks.

Better to play a 36 on a jazz gig, or a 16 on an orchestra gig?

[pfrancis]

Luis Bonilla has a hybridized Bach trombone, 16 & 36. I don’t recall the finer details, but he makes it work!

[Burgerbob]

The small bore and large bore setups are so different that they're not really compatible. The slide lengths are the problem.

I'd just play a 36 or a 16

Thanks.

Better to play a 36 on a jazz gig, or a 16 on an orchestra gig?

36 generally. 16M can definitely work in the right setting

[Doug Elliott]

If you have a 34, that's exactly what it's for. A slightly smaller version of a 36. Not just the slide bore, I'm pretty sure the bell throat is a little tighter too.

And a 36 can have a smaller effect with mouthpiece changes.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Not with a Bach, but I’ve switched parts between a Williams 7 & 8 for fun. Works surprisingly well. Williams 9” bell section with a .500” bore slide makes for some interesting playing characteristics.

[RJMason]

A 16 slide can fit a 36 bell, but it won’t play right. Intonation suffers unless you pull the slide way out and lip everything.

The 34 was supposed to solve that, acting as kind of a bridge for Conn players used to smaller horns. Different bell flare. Some folx have speculated that early 34s were just bad 36s. I’ve played one that felt like that.

But honestly, the 34 is neither here nor there. Sometimes great, sometimes junk, I’ve played two I love and three I hated. I almost bought a magic 34B once, but the valve needed work, and my LT36 and 891ZD covered that ground better (without the myth tax).

Luis used an LT16M with a modified 36 bell for years. Custom bell brace to keep the flange location intact. It worked for him for several decades, but these days he mostly plays an 891.

As for me, when going for this in betweener thing I keep it simple. 891ZD, seamed O’Malley pipe, NY Bach 5 mouthpiece. It gives me what I need between a Bach 8/12 and a 36. Different beast yes, but same spirit.

If I ever change my mind maybe I’ll have O’Malley make me a 34B. That would be epic I bet.

[BrianJohnston]

If you have a 34, that's exactly what it's for. A slightly smaller version of a 36. Not just the slide bore, I'm pretty sure the bell throat is a little tighter too.

And a 36 can have a smaller effect with mouthpiece changes.

Thanks! This is what I was looking for. As long as people on both sides would be ok with a Bach 34

[Driswood]

If you have a 34, that's exactly what it's for. A slightly smaller version of a 36. Not just the slide bore, I'm pretty sure the bell throat is a little tighter too.

And a 36 can have a smaller effect with mouthpiece changes.

I’ve seen the 34 referred to as a “commercialized” 36. .522 bore with a slightly narrower bell stem. I believe it was a custom order for the principal player in a European symphony. I don’t remember his name. Vincent then added it to his catalog.

I played a 34B for a few years and liked it. I traded it for an Elkhart 6H and some cash, and we were both happy with the swap.

[ngrinder]

I played a 34B for a few years and liked it. I traded it for an Elkhart 6H and some cash, and we were both happy with the swap.

I still love that horn, Jerry!

It's funny, my 34B feels more "legit" than 36's I've played. There might be about 5% more response because of the .522 slide, but I really wouldn't go off of that alone to designate this as a "commercial" horn. I believe the entire NY Ballet section played 34s for a season or two. There are a ton of different variables that go into what makes a horn play a certain way, really the only way to know if it works is to try it in a bunch of different settings.

I've done a lot of experimentation re: melding a 36/16, and the best combo I found was replacing the bell stem and flare on a 16 with a custom 8 inch bell made by Miles O'Malley. He has an original Bach mandrel, and he spins very good bells. The specs are so different on both a 16 and 36 that things don't really work pitch and feel wise - I still don't know how Bonilla mated the two.

I do have a factory custom 16m with an 8 inch bell made in the late 70s. It was passed down from a few folks, and plays very well, but someone put extra solder in the bead fold at some point, so the horn plays a lot deader than I'd like. I really wish Bach had decided to put a larger bell on their small horns.

[PVH]

If you have a 34, that's exactly what it's for. A slightly smaller version of a 36. Not just the slide bore, I'm pretty sure the bell throat is a little tighter too.

And a 36 can have a smaller effect with mouthpiece changes.

Doug,

What mouthpiece changes have you found to be most effective on a 36 for creating that smaller effect?

Thanks