TromboneChat

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am**

Hey Folks,

I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:

updated question:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.

original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?

rt

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:22 am**

No. Of course there might be a reason for that. I was very proud of myself in my first lesson with John Swallow. I played an effortless high F. "You can take your high F and 10 cents and get a cup of coffee" I think was the way he put it. This was when you could get a cup of coffee for 10 cents. He wasn't one that was much for blowing smoke up your a$$.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:36 am**

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:22 am No. Of course there might be a reason for that. I was very proud of myself in my first lesson with John Swallow. I played an effortless high F. "You can take your high F and 10 cents and get a cup of coffee" I think was the way he put it. This was when you could get a cup of coffee for 10 cents. He wasn't one that was much for blowing smoke up your a$$.

Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:44 am**

I may have told this story, but here goes.

My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.

One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.

Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.

But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.

The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."

I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"

Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."

My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.

"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."

I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.

Roy Main

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:55 am**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:44 am I may have told this story, but here goes.

My lessons were with a guy named Roy Main, who was known for pumping out lots of professional commercial trombonists.

One day, I showed up to my lesson without having practiced at all that week. Rather than 'fess up, I decided to fake my way through the lesson. The first thing Roy called up was an etude. I hadn't played it even once during the week, so I went to sight read it. I got maybe 3 notes into it when Roy stopped me and had me start again.

Every time I started to play I'd get a few notes into it and Roy would stop and criticize something. It quickly became apparent that I hadn't practiced. So he got more and more sharp and pointed, stopping me every few notes and laying into me very roughly. The whole hour was spent on that one etude, and I didn't even get through it. I left that lesson in tears and sobbed most of the way home.

But you can bet I practiced like crazy the whole following week.

The next week, sure enough, he started with that same etude. I played it flawlessly. He didn't stop me once. I got through the whole thing with as close to perfection as I've ever come. When I was done, Roy simply checked it off and said, "Okay, for next week do this next one."

I said, "Wait a minute! You were so mean to me last week, and treated me so harshly that I left in tears. Now I play it perfectly and I don't even get an acknowledgement of my hard work and improvement? Not even so much as a 'good job'?"

Roy looked me dead in the eye and said flatly, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."

My jaw hit the floor. I was nonplussed. I couldn't believe it. I felt anger and an outburst rising in me, but Roy stopped me in my tracks.

"Look, my job isn't to praise you," he said. "My job is to make you a better trombone player. It is to identify your weak areas and help you improve them. Lessons may not always be pleasant, but this is how you become a professional trombonist."

I had countless lessons with Roy, but those two lessons are the only ones I remember today. And they are the ones that made the most difference.

Roy Main

So that's a no then?

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:02 am**

I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.

Be kind.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:06 am**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:36 am
Are you saying that the reason he responded the way he did was because of your pride? Just want to make sure I understand your meaning.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but maybe. The thing to me seemed that he wasn't going to coddle some young punk with great range and little else to back it up. He might have reacted the same to any number of circus tricks I might have pulled out a bag.

It's nice to be recognized for stuff you do right, but it's more important to know what you do wrong. "Kids these days" are FAR too sensitive about criticism, and tend to get hung up on it. I'm sure we've had this conversation before.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:20 am**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:02 am I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.

Be kind.

I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:22 am**

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:06 am It's nice to be recognized for stuff you do right, but it's more important to know what you do wrong. "Kids these days" are FAR too sensitive about criticism, and tend to get hung up on it.

Yup.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:26 am**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:55 am
So that's a no then?

I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.

Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:27 am**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:20 am
Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:02 am I'd like to suggest that as teachers we can be honest AND supportive. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something. The difference is that one lesson comes with guilt and shame which, as far as I'm concerned, have no place in the teacher-student relationship. Nobody should have to endure their teacher. If you had to endure your grumpy teacher at some point and feel like you gained something by it, great. You grew despite adversity. The adversity is not a necessary part of the equation.

Be kind.
I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.

Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:28 am**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:27 am
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:20 am

I'm sorry, is this supposed to be in response to my story about two of my lessons with Roy Main? The juxtaposition implies it.
Your story and my post are both in response to the topic, which is "supportive" lessons. I suppose they would have to have something to do with each other but I'm not specifically responding to you.

Okay, thanks.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:29 am**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:26 am
ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:55 am
So that's a no then?

I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.

Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.

There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:37 am**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:02 am It's also very possible to be an asshole AND teach someone something.

Yeah -- or at least it can happen that someone learns something from the experience with an asshole. And there may be times when working with an asshole (at least for a while) is beneficial because of some special insight, skill or knowledge that the asshole has in some particular area -- but that requires an open-eyed and perhaps somewhat cynical perspective on the part of the student. But I don't see any of that going on in the case of the original description here.

Most people, when criticized about anything, will respond emotionally or defensively -- often taking criticism to be a personal attack of some sort. This isn't entirely unnatural.

It takes training and experience (and maturity?) to not do that. A lot of people never get that training, and never learn that lesson about criticism without the training.

Positive reinforcement is great, and effective. But if it's the only approach taken (meaning an entirely non-critical one, failing to point out errors and failures), then you're not doing your job as a teacher or coach. And I think we've all seen examples of that.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:25 am**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:29 am
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:26 am

I mean, sure, I'd love to play for an hour for an expert and have him shower me with praise. Tell me how great I am. Be impressed with my skills. That would feel marvelous. It's like paying for a massage. It feels great for a little while afterward.

Not sure I'd get anything helpful out of that, though.
There are many students out there who are incredibly hard on themselves, and they would get something helpful out of it. Mental health is a huge concern among music students.

I've never in my life been satisfied with anything I have played. I'm incredibly hard on myself. Being "my own worst critic" is a huge understatement. Yet, I don't go to trombone lessons for psychological comfort. I go to become a better trombone player. I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound. It feels great. But it doesn't make me better.

There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex. Sometimes I might need an encouraging word. Sometimes I might need a giant kick in the ass. The teacher I want is the one who knows which one I need in the moment.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:33 am**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am Hey Folks,

Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?

rt

I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:

Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:59 am**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:25 am I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound.

I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good".

There seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex.

Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:59 am**

I can't think of why I would. I don't need help with the things I already do well. I need help with the stuff I suck at.

Besides, you couldn't fit all the stuff I'm great at into one lesson.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 11:08 am**

If i have to pay someone for lessons, I'd rather pay for an expert who is a little rough around the edges socially than a baby sitter who can play trombone. If I also need a psych evaluation, I go to a different expert (who probably doesn't know how to play trombone). Can you be good at both? (a great trombone teacher and psychologist). Maybe, but statistically improbable.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 11:33 am**

ghmerrill wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:59 am
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:25 am I get very little help from being told how wonderful I sound.
I tend to be highly skeptical of being told how good I sound -- and the more intense the complement, the more skeptical. Last night the 1st tbn in the section said to me "That sound is AWSOME!" I do appreciate the compliment, but suspect that the sound is closer to "adequate" or maybe even "good".

You sound just like me. I constantly fight a tendency to discount compliments, and I'm always harder on myself than others are, at least to my face.

ghmerrill wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:59 am
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:25 amThere seems to be an assumption in this thread that a teacher is either all happy talk or all asshole. I prefer someone a bit more complex.
Also, "critical" is not equal to "asshole", and should not be taken to be equal to "harmful". Going in either of those directions involves making some assumptions about the teacher that may be very far from the truth -- and more about you than about him or her.

I used the word asshole only because someone before me did. I agree that critical, even harshly critical, doesn't necessarily translate to asshole, and I also agree that such judgments often say more about the speaker than the target.

Maybe someday I can hang with you. I agree with almost everything you post, so it would be good to hang and figure out why you have such poor judgment.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 11:45 am**

I'm not taking lessons to hear how good I am, although if I get a compliment on one aspect of my playing that's nice. I'm taking lessons to improve and concentrating on the things I'm not doing well is why we are sitting in that room.

From the teacher's perspective it must be nice to be able to follow up a student's lesson only with suggestions on interpretation rather than technical flaws. Problem is, most students still have technical flaws that need to be corrected.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:10 pm**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:33 am
ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am Hey Folks,

Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?

rt
I'm trying to read and re-read my question. I want to ensure that I asked it correctly. The responses indicate that I did not. Maybe this is a better version that makes my curiosity more clear:

Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.

I had many teachers in my undergrad but two always stick out to me. One was wasn’t a great teacher and the other was incredible.

The not so great teacher would only tell me what I was doing wrong and how I’d never succeed without getting better.

The amazing teacher always had positive things to say about my playing and progress. They’d of course point out things that weren’t working but it was never in a negative manner and there was always a positive solution. With that teacher the sky was the limit and I improved exponentially studying with them.

Everyone learns differently but I can confidently say I learn better in a positive learning environment than a negative one.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:41 pm**

Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 1:41 pm**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:41 pm Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.

You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 2:19 pm**

In the lessons I'm familiar with, you get an occasional smile, or nice, or nod, or yes, or right, or good, but you were always working toward the next thing to work on (the next problem). You have to be able to live with that level of affirmation. If you need explicit affirmation to hold things together emotionally, you're in the wrong business.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:55 pm**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 1:41 pm
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:41 pm Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.

Agreed!

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:30 pm**

Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 1:41 pm
tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:41 pm Again, this notion that lessons are binary -- either all positive or all negative -- is a shorthand that does not reflect reality. It's a straw man. A fallacy.
You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.

I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:09 pm**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am updated question:
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?
Not like a whole new philosophy or anything, just a single lesson, to hear what’s going well.

original question:
Anyone ever feel like having a lesson where you're just told what you're doing well?

I haven't read all the previous replies.

The instrumental music complex is beset with teachers who can't do much more than thumbs-up or thumbs-down to the student's efforts. Their thumbs-up or -down may be a perfectly accurate judgement, but that's not actual teaching.

My most disappointing lessons were when the teacher gave no path forward, no information to act on.

"Keep working on it" is not teaching. Tell me what i need to do differently, I will try to do that. Spare me the disappointed tones and furrowed eyebrows... explain what to do differently.

I have no idea what your interactions with your teacher are like, nor how far short you have fallen in preparing what you have been assigned.

I'm just saying it's possible the teacher is not addressing the shortfall properly.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2025 10:52 pm**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?

At some point, there has to be some indication of what needs improvement and how to go about improving it. If not, what are you going to be working on for the next lesson?

That said, I do think there's a need for some positive feedback. Obviously there will always be room for improvement in every aspect of one's playing, so positive feedback needs to be along the lines of "that's better, here's how you can build on it."

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 5:03 am**

In response to the edited OP, here goes:

No. Students, especially performance majors, need to hear the following:

"You're not going to make it in the performance world at this rate. Maybe you'll get the job in Central Ohio that pays $1870 per year. Good luck making a living. But if you try harder, maybe that could change."

They need to hear that even if they are Peter Steiner, learning from Alessi the conservatory. Then they come out and do Peter Steiner things.

Far too many music students out there getting pumped up for jobs they aren't going to win, because those jobs *don't exist*. And it's not their fault. High F's and smooth cantabile legato are more common these days than cheap eggs at the grocery store.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:56 am**

Um. I think there are nuances here.

Just as you teach technique customized to what that student needs, rather than one size fits all, wouldn't you also have some appreciation for their mental/emotional outlook? Especially with younger students?

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 8:51 am**

Nuance, yes! Of course, nuance is easier in the lesson room than it is on the internet. A message board is a rather blunt medium.

I can see a young student or a casual student ("I'm just in it for marching band, then I'm going to engineering school") on the far left side of the spectrum, with the highly motivated young professional on the far right side of the spectrum, and the majority of students somewhere in-between.

What's the point of laying into someone who is only taking lessons because his parents are making him or to get out of P.E.? None. Completely counter-productive, and futile to boot. But the person gunning for that major symphony gig needs to be pushed like an Olympic athlete. Being the best means pushing yourself to the very edge of human limits.

It won't do any good to tell that engineering student, "While you're not even practicing an hour a day, someone else is out there practicing 8 hours a day." And it won't do any good to tell the young gunner, "Don't worry about missing a few days of practice this week; you already sound so good."

And in the middle, we have the Great Unwashed who are doing it just for fun but need to be pushed to do better, and sometimes they need a hug, and sometimes they need to be hit upside the head with a bat.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:03 am**

If that's the kind of lessons this thread is about, then that's a different vocation completely. Effective Middle School / High School teachers are saints.

If the question is, "have I personally wanted a lesson where the teacher tells me what I'm doing well and nothing else", which is how it reads:

Nah.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:27 am**

I must say, this has been very enlightening. Thank you all for participating in my tangent.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:38 am**

tbdana wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:30 pm
Kdanielsen wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 1:41 pm

You’re right. My point is that guilt and shame have zero pedagogical value and “being supportive” does have pedagogical value. You can absolutely learn about the stove by burning yourself but it’s not the best way.
I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding you. So, is it your position that a student should not feel guilt or shame for not studying, or not practicing, or not being prepared for class, or not turning assignments in on time? Asking for a friend, because obviously I never did anything like that! LOL

My position is that students already feel guilt and shame about that and teachers should be supportive and helpful, not heap on more. For students who don't care, teaching them guilt is not productive. Teach them why practicing is important instead, or how to prioritize or whatever. Guilt and shame are not healthy motivators whether it’s coming from a teacher or within.

You yourself stated that you are never satisfied with anything you’ve done. That’s hard! Me too, by the way. Validating a student’s hard work can help teach them how to do this for themselves.

Frankly we have an industry filled with people that have powerful but sometimes destructive coping strategies that are not always worth passing onto students. We can be healthier and kinder, and I think that leads to more and better art.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 12:19 pm**

Kris, thank you for explaining your position. I respect it.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 12:51 pm**

I took lessons off an on from an orchestral player in Texas when I was in my twenties, once I got over his snide bedside manner (he was right as far as my playing was concerned), I made a point of "showing him."

So even a bit caustic can be OK, athough I suspect this style of treaching has largely disappeared.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2025 1:46 pm**

Kdanielsen wrote: Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:38 am Frankly we have an industry filled with people that have powerful but sometimes destructive coping strategies...

There is a certain kind of person who can not calmly deal with the repetition inherent in teaching. They get exasperated at having to explain the same things to each new batch of students.

Internally they are saying, "If I've told you kids once, I've told you a thousand times..."

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:48 pm**

Hi all.

Well , Tbdana first replay about Roy Maine approach remember me about my main teacher .
Sometimes we took an hour over a single etude, and he was stpping me every moment , but he was so relaxed , peaceful , and kind , that at the end of the lesson there was not guilt or shame at all , and I was just thinking "he Is TOTALLY right : I want to be a professional , so I have to work hard , etc !".

In my opinion , the way a teacher said things make the difference . Never be rude , and probably you can make ALL the critiques you need to say . And , of course , also point off the positive things that a student Is good at .

Regards
Giancarlo

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 1:05 pm**

I just got some wonderful positive feedback from someone, today. It felt great. But it didn't make me a better player.

It's the nature of the internet, I suppose, but we're too black and white and narrowly focused in our discussion here, I think. A gigantic range of philosophies, feedback, and motivational techniques can be valid. In my story about those two lessons with Roy Main, that kick in the butt was exactly what I needed in that moment. And that's why I remember that, and why I still love Roy after that. He was an incredibly good and kind man who beat the heck out of me because he correctly discerned that that was the correct technique to lay on me (not someone else) at that time (not some other time).

I don't think anyone here is advocating for being a jerk. I don't think anyone here is advocating for coddling people. I think everyone has their own approach and if they are effective teachers they have a whole tool box of things they can whip out to help students improve. And the really good teachers know which tool to use with which student on which day.

But, you know, some don't have a lot of tools, and for them it's "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I've never seen a single Olympic gold medalist earn that award with only positive, feel-good feedback. There is room for tough talk.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 1:20 pm**

tbdana wrote: Sun Jul 20, 2025 1:05 pm And the really good teachers know which tool to use with which student on which day.

Yeah, and they don't exactly spring out of the womb like that. That's something THEY have to learn -- and it takes time and some number of students and experiences to get there. And some never do. With luck, they will leave teaching and take a different path.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 1:50 pm**

Hi agaiin .

Backing to OP , I really do not see the purpose of a lesson in which a teacher focused only on the things that a student Is doing well.

In my opinion , a teacher have to say things as they are ...

Regards
Giancarlo

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 2:16 pm**

I recall that back in the mid/late 1970s (at least) there was an approach to "parenting" (which I believe was called "positive parenting") where the techniques of instruction emphasized "redirection" and "distraction" in order to avoid any sort of direct "correction" or "criticism". It was very popular in academic circles. So, for example (and one I vividly recall seeing in action by some colleagues at the time, applied to their own children) was that you don't say something like "Don't stick your fingers into the electrical outlets!" You don't say anything about the (highly attractive to 2-year olds) electrical outlets. Instead, you say things like "Come over here and we'll read this book." or "Oh, look out the window at those birds." or some such. The avowed advantages and goals of this approach were primarily to avoid "criticism" and "shame". I think this is still quite popular, although its efficacy and effects are still debated.

If you extend this broadly to "teaching", you have an approach where any direct criticism is to be avoided (for the same reasons as in the parenting case). I can't think of how to make it work in the subjects I taught, but maybe Socrates made it work. Of course, we know what happened to Socrates.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 7:35 pm**

I think all lessons should be supportive. But always very honest. And honest is the key word. We all say "how are you" and we answer "fine, thank you" but it doesn't mean much.

I think a lesson should mean something and be supportive, but it has to be honestly.

As a teacher I say it depends so much on who you teach. If it is a kid or a grown up. What personality the person have. It's important to know the person you teach. Then you know how to be honest, but still in a supportive way.

Honest means address things thats working, but also things thats not working.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2025 8:50 pm**

I've never seen a single Olympic gold medalist earn that award with only positive, feel-good feedback. There is room for tough talk.

It is tempting to think that is the secret sauce to making champions.

But consider that probably everyone in an Olympic finals likely had those intense coaches, the coaches who swore and stomped and spit and told them they were "dirt!"

At that level and even far below that they are all the creatures of elite coaches who demand 110% from them every day and never let them think they are good enough.

It's not uncommon to watch a final heat in an event and see that several competitors from different countries had literally the same coaches, because they all attended the same US college.

And yet, only one of them will get the gold medal. Same snarls, same tough love... different outcome.

I submit that the screaming and the shouting is not what made the champion and not what made the championship difference.

Remember that old "Actor's Studio" clip where the famous teacher declares "shouting is not acting!"

Shouting is not teaching either.

Posted: **Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:09 pm**

ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?

No. Never.

Posted: **Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:49 pm**

brassmedic wrote: Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:09 pm
ryant wrote: Fri Jul 18, 2025 8:06 am
Have you ever wanted a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well?

No. Never.

Love the direct answer!

Posted: **Mon Jul 21, 2025 2:05 pm**

I had a teacher who's whole approach was let's identify what you are good at because those are the things you've figured out. He has a line about what you do well is cookie dough and we're going to roll it out into the parts of your playing that don't have any yet. I found that approach to be incredibly effective - it was ignoring what was bad but connecting it to what you do well so you're not fixing problems from scratch- you're building on the skills that helped you figure other stuff out.

Similarly with my students and recording I make them name and equal number of positive, negative, and neutral things they hear in the recording so that they're learning to hear their playing more objectively. It's not ignoring thing that need to be fixed, but trying to have an honest listen rather than just a negative one.

I've found those approaches helpful in my learning and teaching. Not exclusively positive, but focuses on that side much more.

Posted: **Tue Jul 22, 2025 3:41 am**

My college trombone professors basically killed my desire to play with relentless, overbearing criticism.
I take lessons because I want to get better, not be torn down.
I don't need anything sugar coated, but someone people think it's a good thing to leave a lesson crying... If you do it enough, you'll lose the fire that got you going in the first place, or worse, criticize your own playing to death.
There's definitely room to say "that sucked. You know better".

Posted: **Tue Jul 22, 2025 10:41 am**

Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?

Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?

Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?

Somewhere in between?

Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?

TromboneChat

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