TromboneChat

Hi everyone,

I'm a student composer (and bass trombonist), and I've recently finished a new quartet that I wanted to share. Please feel free to leave any comments and critical thoughts you might have; I feel that my writing has been significantly improving, and I would love any opportunity to keep pushing upward.



Note:

Twisting Lines is a two-movement piece written for four trombones. As the title suggests, this quartet was constructed as an abstract progression of ideas with open-ended form, allowing musical lines to twist and develop with freedom.

(Audio playback: NotePerformer 4)

Best,
Robert

Please feel free to leave any comments and critical thoughts you might have

RobertBomar wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 1:30 am Please feel free to leave any comments and critical thoughts you might have;

OK... you asked.

I listened to it all the way through... once. As a listener at a concert performance would. No replays.

I didn't hate it, but i didn't love it either.

So why not? In no particular order of significance...

-The computer performance is drearily un-nuanced. I presume a live performance could have more snap, especially to bring out the syncopated rhythms.

-You're a student composer? I was a student composer! Composition teachers LOVE complicated-looking scores with lots of meter changes and exotic rhythms and very specific notation. It looks like you're really working! To audiences... these details are not nearly as fascinating to hear. Unless you're Anton Bruckner or Paul McCartney, the 3:2 stuff has a way of turning into a muddle.

-The piece is about twisting lines? None of the lines were memorable. When I was a composition student, "melody" was never spoken of except to roll one's eye and moan that it was a naive out-dated device that simply wasn't to be bothered with any more. Perhaps that is still the case. However, I believe a piece like this, of this length, needs more-compelling, more-identifiable "lines" for the audience to grab onto.

- Did any of the lines ever return to give the audience an "Ah-ha" moment? I didn't notice... it seemed like a lot of unrelated wandering going on until the movement stopped. I listened to it but once, as an audience would.

-You play Bass trombone? I play bass trombone! What you have written for that part is not unplayable but it's a lot of work for a part that... if played rigorously right... will seem unremarkable, but if he's not landing every one of those notes on time, the piece won't work. Of course, for a knock-out attractive piece of music, it's worth the effort but... you have probably guessed where I fall on the knock-outedness scale.

I'm sure you may have an "I meant it that way" rebuttal for all of my points, but I think what you really ought to do is organize a real performance of your piece and prove me wrong on all of them!

I'm going to be more forgiving. There's some good, fun ideas in there. For me, the main problem is ignoring the "low interval limit" making everything sound harmonically muddy.

For the curious who want to know what a low interval limit is - Adam here goes over the basics in the first couple minutes:



In my experience, the low interval limits for trombone ensembles are actually *slightly* lower than is typical practice, because trombones (when they are played by great players) can really dial in tuning better than most other instruments, matched perhaps by cellos and low singers. Thus: the computer playback is probably slightly worse than a live performance in terms of "muddiness". However - not by all that much. Especially for those who are not experienced with getting tons and tons of live performer feedback, the computer playback is a very valuable resource to pay attention to for details like this.

robcat2075 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 8:06 pm Please feel free to leave any comments and critical thoughts you might have

RobertBomar wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 1:30 am Please feel free to leave any comments and critical thoughts you might have;

OK... you asked.

I listened to it all the way through... once. As a listener at a concert performance would. No replays.

I didn't hate it, but i didn't love it either.

So why not? In no particular order of significance...

-The computer performance is drearily un-nuanced. I presume a live performance could have more snap, especially to bring out the syncopated rhythms.

-You're a student composer? I was a student composer! Composition teachers LOVE complicated-looking scores with lots of meter changes and exotic rhythms and very specific notation. It looks like you're really working! To audiences... these details are not nearly as fascinating to hear. Unless you're Anton Bruckner or Paul McCartney, the 3:2 stuff has a way of turning into a muddle.

-The piece is about twisting lines? None of the lines were memorable. When I was a composition student, "melody" was never spoken of except to roll one's eye and moan that it was a naive out-dated device that simply wasn't to be bothered with any more. Perhaps that is still the case. However, I believe a piece like this, of this length, needs more-compelling, more-identifiable "lines" for the audience to grab onto.

- Did any of the lines ever return to give the audience an "Ah-ha" moment? I didn't notice... it seemed like a lot of unrelated wandering going on until the movement stopped. I listened to it but once, as an audience would.

-You play Bass trombone? I play bass trombone! What you have written for that part is not unplayable but it's a lot of work for a part that... if played rigorously right... will seem unremarkable, but if he's not landing every one of those notes on time, the piece won't work. Of course, for a knock-out attractive piece of music, it's worth the effort but... you have probably guessed where I fall on the knock-outedness scale.

I'm sure you may have an "I meant it that way" rebuttal for all of my points, but I think what you really ought to do is organize a real performance of your piece and prove me wrong on all of them!

I asked indeed! Thanks for taking the time to tell me what you think in detail and especially for finishing the piece despite your hesitation. I think your point on the unforgiving nature of the bass trombone part is very accurate; I've found in rehearsal that it really does need perfect execution for the piece to work like it's supposed to.

AndrewMeronek wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 9:04 pm I'm going to be more forgiving. There's some good, fun ideas in there. For me, the main problem is ignoring the "low interval limit" making everything sound harmonically muddy.

For the curious who want to know what a low interval limit is - Adam here goes over the basics in the first couple minutes:



In my experience, the low interval limits for trombone ensembles are actually *slightly* lower than is typical practice, because trombones (when they are played by great players) can really dial in tuning better than most other instruments, matched perhaps by cellos and low singers. Thus: the computer playback is probably slightly worse than a live performance in terms of "muddiness". However - not by all that much. Especially for those who are not experienced with getting tons and tons of live performer feedback, the computer playback is a very valuable resource to pay attention to for details like this.

That's a very good point. I'll be listening for that when the first live performance is done in about a week.

I play a lot of quartets. My group might take on something like the 2nd movement, but not the first. As mentioned, the muddiness factor hobbles the first movement. 2nd movement has more motion, and is higher in the register, and its just more interesting. It has more distinct articulation.

I like to do arrangements, but I can't break into original writing. I recognize how difficult it is to come up with something new. It takes a lot of courage to write this stuff and then put it out there for critique. I wish I could break into writing original stuff.

I am dismayed that the many new-music opinion-holders here have not stepped in to give you more feedback.

None-the-less... how did the live performance go? Will we get to hear it?

AndrewMeronek wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 9:04 pm ...

For the curious who want to know what a low interval limit is - Adam here goes over the basics in the first couple minutes:



...

I really love this guy's presentations. Even when I don't 100% understand or agree with him, he always gives a real reason for what he says. For example, his ionian aeolean argument in that video. I never really thought of it that way. Someone with his command of music theory could probably convincingly argue a different point of view as well, but this one really made sense to me. He did one episode on tunes in locrian mode which was nothing short of brilliant.

Anyway, what he says here about the lower interval limit is real. As a guy who plays a lot of trombone quartets (and tries to arrange from time to time), this is a real thing. And of course if you follow his line of thinking as applied to quartets, sometimes you wind up pushing the upper voices into the stratosphere just to avoid lower limits on the bottom. I find a lot of the things I work on wind up with top notes at high C or D, which I do mainly to avoid muddy lower harmonies. My reasoning isn't as well thought out and supported as Adam's, but the lower interval limit is a real thing. The "upper limit" for trombones is really how much do you want to limit accessibility to your piece? If you pick 4 random bone players at a given university, how many of them can perform a high D in time with a good sound? How many of them can do that 10 times in a given concert?

Even a guy like Robert Elkjer (who we have discussed here before in this context) I think in the context of his tbone quartet writing often crosses the line of playability in part because he's a keyboardist, and a lot of things sound good on the keyboard that don't translate to trombone. The same argument goes for midi sounds on a computer. Are some notes just too low or too high or are some rhythms just too weird or too out of context? Writing for quartet is easier and harder than other (bigger) kinds of writing because you are limited to 4 voices of roughly the same range.

Anyway. Add all of that on top of trying to write something original. Writing music is hard. Writing good music is super hard. Writing good music that other people like will never be 100% successful because there is no 100% overlap in tastes across 100% of listeners, even semi-educated listeners. The question comes back to how accessible do you want to make your music? What percentage of people can you afford to annoy? Can you truly get away with just pleasing yourself? In the end, what's the goal of the music?