TromboneChat

Two years ago I started playing trombone again after 30 years off.

The first day I couldn't even get a note out of the horn. But then I took off like a rocket. I got so far in a month it was like going from 0 to 100 in 1 second.

Two years later I'm a wildly better player. But now my rate of improvement has reached a point where it is all but imperceptible. And I'm wondering if I've reached the end of the learning curve. Like this is as good as I'm ever going to be, no matter how hard I work at it. I'm still not back to where I was when I quit 32 years ago. And the biggest factor, I think, is the age thing. I'm in my 70th year. Absolutely everything I do, I do worse than I did 30 years ago. Even things like walking, strength, endurance, thinking, balance, and memory. That's the facts of life for getting older. You reach a peak, and then it's all a long decline from there.

I fear I've gotten as good as I'm going to get. That no matter how hard I work now, I've hit that intersection of improvement hitting the wall of age-related decline. And that's scary, because I'm not done. I still need to improve.

They say father time is undefeated. Is that true in terms of something like playing trombone? Is there a way to get past this? Or do I need to just accept it?

My method is go play another instrument for a while. When I come back, what I learned and the strength I gained on the other instrument benefits the primary. This has worked going from trumpet to euphonium to trombone to tuba and back again.

I like to think about how it's not always what you say, but how you say it - even in a simplest phrase that you can play, there is an almost infinite potential for art.

WilliamLang wrote: Wed May 28, 2025 2:38 pm I like to think about how it's not always what you say, but how you say it - even in a simplest phrase that you can play, there is an almost infinite potential for art.

This! There's always another layer, a deeper level where you can keep digging.

The learning curve isn’t a curve. It’s more like the profile of a jagged mountain range, or one of those share index graphs. The feeling of progress, and actual performance, goes up and down over time. There may be a trend in a particular direction, that is influenced by several factors of which effort, technique, tuition and physical/mental capacity are but a few.

My post was about age-related decline. If I’m reading you correctly, none of you think that’s an issue?

When Bill Watrous was my age he was just a shell of his former self despite “practicing every day of his life,” as his wife Maryann says.

Dick Nash is early 90s and can barely play at all.

Jeff Reynolds laments how far he has fallen and contemplates giving up the horn altogether.

Every pro player I know over 70 is diminished and less than they previously were.

Are we really saying age can’t be a rock wall you run into and that age can be overcome? I mean, I hope so! I’ve just seen no evidence of that.

Well yeah, the body will fail. But meaning and beauty can still be created, and at the very least there's value in the attempt, even if it doesn't go the way we imagine.

The old adage about doing things the same and expecting a different outcome defining insanity applies. I'm 69. In the last six years I've added multiple new instruments. I've expanded my personal fitness routines. I've worked on expanding all things mental to stay sharp. What are you doing that is different then what you have always done? Most aging people reduce what they do. Laziness sets in. They expect to do less and get at least what they've always had. Sound sensible? In reality, aging requires doing more to just get close to the same capabilities. Improving in any aspect of life will require much more effort and a wide range of approaches.

I'm serious when I say expanding the number of instruments you play will reap benefits. Breathing, alternative muscle development paths and growing your brain will give results. Why not try it for a year and see what happens. Also develop a fitness regime that develops you in all ways physical. I'm not saying the usual "go for a walk" idea. I'm talking about strength training, flexibility training and developing some level of endurance too. Imagine being the best and well rounded you that you can be. Give it a year and see what happens.

Does all of this take tremendous effort and time? Of course.

tbdana wrote: Wed May 28, 2025 10:24 am Two years ago I started playing trombone again after 30 years off.

The first day I couldn't even get a note out of the horn. But then I took off like a rocket. I got so far in a month it was like going from 0 to 100 in 1 second.

Two years later I'm a wildly better player. But now my rate of improvement has reached a point where it is all but imperceptible. And I'm wondering if I've reached the end of the learning curve. Like this is as good as I'm ever going to be, no matter how hard I work at it. I'm still not back to where I was when I quit 32 years ago. And the biggest factor, I think, is the age thing. I'm in my 70th year. Absolutely everything I do, I do worse than I did 30 years ago. Even things like walking, strength, endurance, thinking, balance, and memory. That's the facts of life for getting older. You reach a peak, and then it's all a long decline from there.

I fear I've gotten as good as I'm going to get. That no matter how hard I work now, I've hit that intersection of improvement hitting the wall of age-related decline. And that's scary, because I'm not done. I still need to improve.

They say father time is undefeated. Is that true in terms of something like playing trombone? Is there a way to get past this? Or do I need to just accept it?

Aah nearly the same as my post, Didn't see this post before now. 70 Dana? I'm just a young kid 63 You are impressing. Your playing, your young and fresh mind. I think men grow older faster and loose both curiosity and creativity faster than women.

To answer some of your thoughts I think it's like bicycling. From the time we learned it, it's to relearn after a break.

Leif

Richard3rd wrote: Wed May 28, 2025 6:06 pm The old adage about doing things the same and expecting a different outcome defining insanity applies. I'm 69. In the last six years I've added multiple new instruments. I've expanded my personal fitness routines. I've worked on expanding all things mental to stay sharp. What are you doing that is different then what you have always done? Most aging people reduce what they do. Laziness sets in. They expect to do less and get at least what they've always had. Sound sensible? In reality, aging requires doing more to just get close to the same capabilities. Improving in any aspect of life will require much more effort and a wide range of approaches.

I'm serious when I say expanding the number of instruments you play will reap benefits. Breathing, alternative muscle development paths and growing your brain will give results. Why not try it for a year and see what happens. Also develop a fitness regime that develops you in all ways physical. I'm not saying the usual "go for a walk" idea. I'm talking about strength training, flexibility training and developing some level of endurance too. Imagine being the best and well rounded you that you can be. Give it a year and see what happens.

Does all of this take tremendous effort and time? Of course.

I like a lot of this post. Hmmm, food for thought! (While sitting, of course. And surfing the web. With a glass of wine. Or two. For, you know, health reasons. )

I feel like maybe you just hit a plateau, not a wall. I haven't had one recently, but they seemed to happen when I was working hardest.

Also recognize that what you still have may be a lot more than what others have been able to develop. Our big band had a lead trumpet player join when he was about 70 and the rest of us struggled to keep up. At the end of a 2hr gig he was often the only one not lying on the floor. Was he as good then as when he was younger? Of course not. Did he still have a lot to work with? You bet, and then some.

He played with us into his early 80's, and although his consistency started to fall off, he still had an impressive amount of power and endurance. Build as much as you can, while you can, and rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Have you reached the end of the curve for outright chops on your instrument? Maybe. Have you reached the end of the curve musically? Not a chance.

Is it your faculty on your instrument the limiting factor of being able to affect an audience with a ballad? I doubt it. Is the limiting factor for developing ideas when soloing? It doesn't have to be.

I'm lucky enough to play regularly with the great Henry Lowther. He's well into his eighties now and still plays beautifully. Can he physically play the trumpet as well as he used to? Not really, no. But his phrasing is still perfect and his solos a joy to listen to. Beauty and invention don't necessarily need peak technique.

So there's plenty of road left!

There's that lovely quote from Pablo Casals when asked: "you are 95 and the greatest cellist that ever lived. Why do you still practice six hours a day?” replied “Because I think I’m making progress.”

There's a great quote by Duke Ellington: The wise musician plays what he has mastered, and up and down the musical food chain, I see evidence of this.

There is so much music to be made with very basic raw materials, so if the tool kit isn't as extensive as it used to be, there's still a lot you can do.

For 99% of us, there's always something you wish you could do on the horn consistently that simply exceeds your skill level, but nobody needs to see you sweat, push the envelope when you practice, and keep a comfortable margin of error when you perform.

I was listening to old Artie Shaw recordings the other day, and while he was a superb technician (and apparently, a big asshole), it is the warmth of his tone that I bask in: Simple, and beautiful.

Put another way: no matter how fast or high you can play on trombone, you're still basically the world's tallest midget to nearly all listeners, compared to most other instruments.

mgladdish wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 9:14 am Is it your faculty on your instrument the limiting factor of being able to affect an audience with a ballad? I doubt it.

There have been a handful of comments in this thread to the effect that even if I've hit the technical wall, I can still grow in musicality. This feels like one of those.

Honestly I think my musicality is far and away the best thing I have going. It's what I do better than anything else. Ballads, especially. I spent 15 years sitting next to a couple of the best ballad players on earth, and I studied hard. And I learned that the goal isn't to play the trombone, the goal is to play the music. The idea is to completely forget about the trombone in my hands and to just make beautiful music. That's a thing I won't lose, and it's something many trombonists would benefit form focusing on.

Age is just a number. I’m 71+ and still playing. My average playing time is under two hours a week. Don’t practice much because of home renovations and raising livestock. Along with being the family automotive mechanic…Signed up for Christmas community band. Euph section needed me the most. Huh, real sheet music, not a chord sheet! Normally use same chord sheets for trumpet, trombone, euph, and French horn. Had two 2 hour practices before the concert. First practice my folder was missing a song. Treble clef player had two, played one song in treble clef no problem. Day of the concert another 2 hour practice, hour break than the hour and a half concert. Not even feeling it in my chops after the last song. My first concert in 53 years. Horn sounded way better than my last concert, think experience and actually caring about how I sound now was more a factor than a decent euphonium vs a school baritone. And also noticed my sight reading has improved over years ago. Not much thinking when chord sheet spells out the chord note, which just gives me a starting point for whatever I decide to play that day. Few ensembles and a piano/eupf duet my only sheet music reading for the most part, other than a stint of grandson and I keeping our chops up playing our trumpets with his school 1st trumpet music he had home during Covid shutdowns. Basically played it enough we both had it memorized! Star Spangled Banner you say, could probably still play it without the music!

You know the name Dave Taylor, right? Dave's 80 (1, 2?)

Still doin' it at the highest levels in all styles of music. He's pretty inspirational.

Here's a great interview with Christian Griego, where he talks about being the 'old gray guy' at some point.

Plus, he's really thought out how to play the trombone as they get into it. Really excellent interview!

Very good interview. Quite a number of years ago, Doug Yeo interviewed Dave. The interview was published by the ITF/ITA. I always wished Doug had done a follow-up. This may have to do.

tbdana wrote: Wed May 28, 2025 10:24 am I fear I've gotten as good as I'm going to get. That no matter how hard I work now, I've hit that intersection of improvement hitting the wall of age-related decline. And that's scary, because I'm not done. I still need to improve.

There's no way around the effects of aging. You will gradually lose some strength, endurance, speed, reflexes, air capacity, etc. But it still may be possible to improve your playing in some respects. Maybe if you talked about a specific area you are struggling to improve, there might be some people here who could give suggestions in that particular area.

tbdana wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:49 am

mgladdish wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 9:14 am Is it your faculty on your instrument the limiting factor of being able to affect an audience with a ballad? I doubt it.

There have been a handful of comments in this thread to the effect that even if I've hit the technical wall, I can still grow in musicality. This feels like one of those.

Honestly I think my musicality is far and away the best thing I have going. It's what I do better than anything else. Ballads, especially. I spent 15 years sitting next to a couple of the best ballad players on earth, and I studied hard. And I learned that the goal isn't to play the trombone, the goal is to play the music. The idea is to completely forget about the trombone in my hands and to just make beautiful music. That's a thing I won't lose, and it's something many trombonists would benefit form focusing on.

Sorry, I didn’t mean that as a slight on your playing in the slightest!

I think the general point is there are really only two sides to this - the how and the what. The how will gradually decline as we age, there’s no such issue with the what.

And I bet those guys you sat next to never thought they were done either. There’s always room to get better, regardless of how good we are

Maybe it's time to move away from learning and focus on the doing? Have you tried....:



He's within just a few years of your age!

Are there any high-level performers who made it into old age and yet never diminished?

Some like Isaac Stern continued to command top fees but this was more a measure of their fandom than their remaining skill.

I can't think of anyone who died at 80 and was credibly eulogized with "cut short in his prime!"

At a recent college band reunion I happened to sit at the dinner table with an alumnus who was principle trumpet of the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra for several decades. When he retired, that was the end. He said he hasn't played since. Anywhere. He didn't want to play into decline.

For tbdana, this reminds me of the old joke about two guys running from a bear. One asks, "Do you really think we can outrun this bear?" and the other replies, "No, I just have to run faster than you."

To continue her playing, she merely needs to be better than the next guy.

There won't be a shortage of trombone players one can be better-than for a long time to come.

Seems a lot of the best brass players in major symphonies are maintaining tenure well into their 60s and 70s. With medicine improvements and healthier lifestyles becoming the norm, I assume we'll see a lot of folk playing well past their physical "prime." It's getting more expensive to put kids/grandkids through education, or buy homes... Might be a driving factor to keep performing longer.

I saw an interview a few years back with Charlie Vernon, he discussed how he's lost some air quantity and single tonguing speed as times moved on. He is 77 this year.

Bach lost his hearing and managed to continue writing great music. We might be surprised how many partially deaf or blind musicians we have still playing at high levels right now.

MET opera trumpet Jim Pandolfi was legally blind for half of his playing career.

harrisonreed wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 5:33 am Maybe it's time to move away from learning and focus on the doing? Have you tried....:
[Christian Lindberg daily routine]

Why do I feel that one leg is longer after watching Christian's video?

Oh well, as long as I use one of his mouthpieces, I'll be a great trombonist!

(And I'm older than he is.)

robcat2075 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:25 pm Are there any high-level performers who made it into old age and yet never diminished?

Seems like Jay Friedman qualifies.

Doc Severinsen also comes to mind. He retired at 95, while still being a better trumpet player than most of the rest of the world.

Hi OP Dana, I'm the same age as you, but I have played continuously through my adult life. Am I still getting better ? Not really. My eyesight is not as good as it was, nor is my hearing. Not big changes, but real nonetheless. I have to spend more time practicing to do the same job.
Over the spring and summer we are mainly playing operetta, so I pulled out an old 70H that I have, to fit the music better. I tried a few mouthpieces with it as my current piece did not get the best out of the 70H. One mouthpiece stood out...a Mt Vernon 2G. It sings with the old Conn. Now, long ago I was lucky as a fourteen year old to get a Conn 73H and a Bach 2G mouthpiece. Your heading about the ark of practice really chimed with me. I've found myself remembering how I solved issues of stuffiness and low register work all those years ago. My modern horns are far easier, but very different. It's like revisiting my young self and finding out how I started out on this long road to my present self. It's an ark for sure. Interesting to revisit with a career of learning. I've learnt to be way more efficient, for one. I understand the job better too. Do I think I can improve my technique? I doubt it, but I can always and forever try to be a better musician. It's still a fun journey that I hope to continue until some physical degradation gets in the way. You are a wonderful player. Enjoy !!

robcat2075 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:25 pm For tbdana, this reminds me of the old joke about two guys running from a bear. One asks, "Do you really think we can outrun this bear?" and the other replies, "No, I just have to run faster than you."

To continue her playing, she merely needs to be better than the next guy.

There won't be a shortage of trombone players one can be better-than for a long time to come.

Certainly that's correct. And while I don't see it quite that way, I understand that I need to "outrun the other guy" in the sense of being able to play well enough to get/keep the gig. There are exactly zero gigs here that require one to be a trombone virtuoso. And yeah, at the moment I'm probably still one of the better players in the region, so as long as I don't fall off a cliff I'll probably continue to play well enough to get my slice of the work (knock on wood).

But I've been thinking about your post the last few days because something was nagging me about it, and I think I've figured out what it is. I really do have a need to outrun that bear.

I am not one who is content just to be able to show up to rehearsal or the gig and play the part well. I wish I were. I mean, of course I want to do that! But that's not what motivates me when I get up in the morning.

When I listen to Marshall Gilkes, Frank Rosolino, John Allred, Bill Watrous, Carl Fontana and Urbie Green I feel there's a freedom they have that I need; a freedom from the trombone, where the horn is no longer a limiting factor. They have outrun the bear. In that way I guess the trombone itself is the bear I'm trying to outrun. And I'm confronting the fact that advancing age means that the bear will inevitably reach me and consume me before I can run away from it.

There is no one in my race but me and the bear.

Doug Elliott wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 4:46 pm

robcat2075 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:25 pm Are there any high-level performers who made it into old age and yet never diminished?

Seems like Jay Friedman qualifies.

I'm sure we would wish that to be true but there is an abundance of commentary to the otherwise and I believe it could be shown empirically that his place was filled by subs on many occasions including a European tour.

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 1:28 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 4:46 pm

Seems like Jay Friedman qualifies.

I'm sure we would wish that to be true but there is an abundance of commentary to the otherwise and I believe it could be shown empirically that his place was filled by subs on many occasions including a European tour.

And who the hell are you to bring into question the reputation of possibly the greatest orchestral trombonist of all time ?
Pathetic

blast wrote: Fri Jun 06, 2025 2:46 am And who the hell are you to bring into question the reputation of possibly the greatest orchestral trombonist of all time ?
Pathetic

I'm sure lots of foot-stamping went into that, too.

tbdana wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:29 am When I listen to Marshall Gilkes, Frank Rosolino, John Allred, Bill Watrous, Carl Fontana and Urbie Green I feel there's a freedom they have that I need; a freedom from the trombone, where the horn is no longer a limiting factor. They have outrun the bear.

You do know you're listening to recordings of their past playing, right?

I certainly didn't follow the playing career of every one of those names, but i know some of those had a recognized decline in old age. The bear did catch up with them.

And Marshall Gilkes is only 46? He's not quite an example of someone defeating old age.

robcat2075 wrote: Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:33 am

tbdana wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:29 am When I listen to Marshall Gilkes, Frank Rosolino, John Allred, Bill Watrous, Carl Fontana and Urbie Green I feel there's a freedom they have that I need; a freedom from the trombone, where the horn is no longer a limiting factor. They have outrun the bear.

You do know you're listening to recordings of their past playing, right?

I certainly didn't follow the playing career of every one of those names, but i know some of those had a recognized decline in old age. The bear did catch up with them.

And Marshall Gilkes is only 46? He's not quite an example of someone defeating old age.

Fair enough. I know the bear catches us all eventually. I'd just like to outrun it for a while before it does.

tbdana wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:29 am

robcat2075 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:25 pm For tbdana, this reminds me of the old joke about two guys running from a bear. One asks, "Do you really think we can outrun this bear?" and the other replies, "No, I just have to run faster than you."

To continue her playing, she merely needs to be better than the next guy.

There won't be a shortage of trombone players one can be better-than for a long time to come.

Certainly that's correct. And while I don't see it quite that way, I understand that I need to "outrun the other guy" in the sense of being able to play well enough to get/keep the gig. There are exactly zero gigs here that require one to be a trombone virtuoso. And yeah, at the moment I'm probably still one of the better players in the region, so as long as I don't fall off a cliff I'll probably continue to play well enough to get my slice of the work (knock on wood).

But I've been thinking about your post the last few days because something was nagging me about it, and I think I've figured out what it is. I really do have a need to outrun that bear.

I am not one who is content just to be able to show up to rehearsal or the gig and play the part well. I wish I were. I mean, of course I want to do that! But that's not what motivates me when I get up in the morning.

When I listen to Marshall Gilkes, Frank Rosolino, John Allred, Bill Watrous, Carl Fontana and Urbie Green I feel there's a freedom they have that I need; a freedom from the trombone, where the horn is no longer a limiting factor. They have outrun the bear. In that way I guess the trombone itself is the bear I'm trying to outrun. And I'm confronting the fact that advancing age means that the bear will inevitably reach me and consume me before I can run away from it.

There is no one in my race but me and the bear.

We want to hear YOU!....not them....they are and have been themselves doing what they can. They're all doing (or did) what they do and we're all thankful to them for elevating our standards and showing what's possible on the trombone.

Most real music lovers (not 'jazz only' music fans) would probably rather hear you play a ballad like you've posted some months ago.

Just like hearing Urbie Green or Bill Watrous play a beautiful ballad. You still do that! ...and, that's what most real music lovers (not trombone-only lovers) want to hear the world over. A song...something nice and memorable.... not a bunch of jazz licks that only trombone players appreciate.

I've had a fun time revisiting the kind of gear I used over 50 years ago, but it's come to an end for now. What did I learn ? A Bach 2G was too small then, and it’s too small now...for me. I remember the ways I had to work around stuffy valves and get used to very heavy slides. Back on the modern setup and I realise how much progress has been made in playability....vastly easier, and that frees me up to focus on music. Only an old Conn sounds like an old Conn, but modern concepts are different. Better equipment can make the physical act of playing easier and possibly extend playing life. It also helps get around the technical stuff.

robcat2075 wrote: Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:33 am You do know you're listening to recordings of their past playing, right?

Nahhhh Frank sounds the same exact way today as he did back then!

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jun 07, 2025 5:41 am

robcat2075 wrote: Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:33 am You do know you're listening to recordings of their past playing, right?

Nahhhh Frank sounds the same exact way today as he did back then!

You mean he was silent? [He's dead, you know]

BGuttman wrote: Sat Jun 07, 2025 7:35 am

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jun 07, 2025 5:41 am

Nahhhh Frank sounds the same exact way today as he did back then!

You mean he was silent? [He's dead, you know]

I'm glad we have a straight man for my comedy act.

BGuttman wrote: Sat Jun 07, 2025 7:35 am

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jun 07, 2025 5:41 am

Nahhhh Frank sounds the same exact way today as he did back then!

You mean he was silent? [He's dead, you know]

Naaaah, he's just counting the rests.

Geez. That looks just like one of my orchestra parts.