Jazz Trombone- Alternatives to the Urbie

[WVJazzbone]

Hello everyone!

I have an Equipment question for you…

I’ve been playing a Martin Urbie Green for over 20 years. I like the horn, but sometimes find it a little lightweight for playing lead, and for the amount of air I’m using at louder volumes. I’m thinking something a little heavier weight might give my volume a little more of a ceiling. I’ve been looking into a few different horns…the King 2B Plus is a contender. The right Shires .500 bore might work. I wasn’t as much of a fan of the Michael Davis (not the “+”) that I tried. I like a 6H, so that could be in the running, and the Greenhoe brass GC2Y looks like it could be a good horn. An Edwards could be in the running too.

I know the best way to figure out what works is to try each of the trombones, but for what I want—-an instrument for playing lead trombone in a jazz ensemble, but something versatile enough to play in smaller combos as well, what does everyone recommend in my case? The Urbie tends to “break up” at louder volumes. N


I’m playing on a Bach 7C Mouthpiece, if that helps at all.

Thanks for any advice!

[BGuttman]

I love my Holton 67 Stratodyne. Same approximate bore size (0.487" bore) and built pretty beefy. Similarly a Conn 48H might fill the bill. I also play a Conn 40H TIS Ballroom, but that has a pretty heavy slide that could be a turnoff. In my avatar I'm playing a Martin Committee, which I also liked, but if you don't like the Urbie you might not like that either.

None of those could compete with a heavy belled Edwards T-302, though.

[DaveAshley]

I have the same thoughts about my Urbie. I love it most of the time, but it has its limits. When I know I need the "extra" I go with my Lawler .500 horn. Unfortunately, Roy is retired now.

If I were in your situation, and I had the financial means, I would go to Wisconsin and see Christan at Edwards.

[UATrombone]

What about Megatone or Calder Tone Halo?

[hyperbolica]

There was a thread recently about the 48h. It's definitely a volume producer. It's fairly heavy with a dark enough tone that it can be used in a range of music. An offbeat option might be the Olds Recording. Again heavy and dark ish.

[Doug Elliott]

I was going to suggest a 48H. Recording would also fit. I wouldn't call either one dark-ish though. I've used my Recording on lead.

But to the OP - don't assume it's the horn - the 7C may simply be too small for you. That can make the sound break up early.

[RJMason]

That’s the reason I don’t own an Urbie. Those horns are so easy to pick up and play but when I would crank it just wouldn’t hold up. A lot of the suggestions here are great. I recently got a 48H and I really like that bell. Greenhoes are also really great clear sounding modern examples. I think of the GC2-Y as a thin belled 6H with King 2B and Urbie influences. I’m sure you’d enjoy it.

[Trevorspaulding376]

Bach 12 ?

[ssking2b]

The XO 1632 RG-LT .500 bore horn is lighter than the Urbie Martin but plays much better. Sound doesnt break up.

[dembones]

If you're considering the Greenhoe, I highly recommend it. Wonderful to play, sings in all registers, sweet on ballads, and you can light it up while it holds the core beautifully. Great build quality, beautiful horn. I like it!

https://thebrass-exchange.com has them, Brad is great to deal with. I see that right now he has a like-new used one for a good price.

[WVJazzbone]

I haven’t checked the forum for a little while…I was thinking that I might need to make a couple posts on someone else’s thread before this post would be approved!

Thanks for the suggestions so far! I could definitely try going the vintage route with the 48h.

As for mouthpieces, I suppose that could be another rabbit hole to dive into… I do like the rim shape of the 7c. The 6.5AL rim shape doesn’t agree with me. I prefer a slightly wider and rounded inner rim, but I know it’s the cup size and throat/venturi/back bore that could make a difference in how the horn responds. Maybe a straight 7 would be an option, or even another mouthpiece manufacturer. I don’t think I’m overthinking it on the horn overall being a little lightweight for me and the horn’s purpose, but it is possible (and would definitely be a cheaper option!)

[ngrinder]

Why don't you experiment with leadpipes? It certainly seems that a heavier gauge/longer pipe might work for you. You could also experiment with adding weight to the bell of the horn with lead tape.

Or buy a new horn! New horns are fun : )

[WVJazzbone]

Why don't you experiment with leadpipes? It certainly seems that a heavier gauge/longer pipe might work for you.

Unfortunately, the Martin Urbie Green doesn’t have interchangeable leadpipes.

I do like the horn. I just sometimes have to be careful. In front of a mic it’s great. It just washes a little and feels a little thin when pushed. The horn was definitely made for Urbie’s style—nice warm tone, and seemingly MADE for playing ballads in front of a mic.

[WVJazzbone]

I was going to suggest a 48H. Recording would also fit. I wouldn't call either one dark-ish though. I've used my Recording on lead.

But to the OP - don't assume it's the horn - the 7C may simply be too small for you. That can make the sound break up early.

I appreciate the suggestions! Maybe one of these days I’ll have to make the trip to get a proper custom mouthpiece fitting. I considered that back in my college years in the late 90’s, but coming up with the funds for a premium mouthpiece (and questionable car reliability) made me hold off at the time.

[Posaunus]

Mouthpieces: Think outside the Bachs!

Bach mouthpieces are no longer the dominant brand, or even the preferred option for many trombonists.
I, for one, prefer pieces from other manufacturers. The choice is very individual.

[MStarke]

Very subtle changes on the mouthpiece can already make a difference. A slightly larger bore, different cup profile or more weight COULD already make a change.

[Doug Elliott]

I was going to suggest a 48H. Recording would also fit. I wouldn't call either one dark-ish though. I've used my Recording on lead.

But to the OP - don't assume it's the horn - the 7C may simply be too small for you. That can make the sound break up early.

I appreciate the suggestions! Maybe one of these days I’ll have to make the trip to get a proper custom mouthpiece fitting. I considered that back in my college years in the late 90’s, but coming up with the funds for a premium mouthpiece (and questionable car reliability) made me hold off at the time.

You don't need to make a trip... I can give very valid advice if I can see you play online for just a few minutes.

[ngrinder]

Why don't you experiment with leadpipes? It certainly seems that a heavier gauge/longer pipe might work for you.

Unfortunately, the Martin Urbie Green doesn’t have interchangeable leadpipes.

I do like the horn. I just sometimes have to be careful. In front of a mic it’s great. It just washes a little and feels a little thin when pushed. The horn was definitely made for Urbie’s style—nice warm tone, and seemingly MADE for playing ballads in front of a mic.

If you have a tech unsolder your current leadpipe, you'll be able to switch them freely. All trombones have leadpipes that can be unsoldered and interchanged.

Also, Urbie was a very powerful lead player! Of course I've never played with him, but from what I've heard from others and from listening to recordings of him on lead, boy, does he sound strong! It's always amazing to me how incredible musicians can switch playing styles so fluently.

[WVJazzbone]

True regarding the leadpipes. I just meant that it wasn’t easily interchangeable without altering the original instrument, which I would rather not do.

I also agree that Urbie was an AMAZING lead player—and I’m sure that you know that he played a 2B during a lot of that time. That is the reason I was thinking that maybe a slightly heavier horn than the Martin might help to avoid getting a little brittle at louder volumes.

All advice so far is greatly appreciated! I just thought I’d look to other trombonists to see if anyone had the same issues with the Martin, and provide alternatives that might help to pick up where the Martin sometimes comes up short for me.

Heck, we ALL picked the obviously superior instrument—all we have to do is sort out which ones we want in our stable and when to use each one!

[Grotewobbo]

I own a King 2B and a King 3B. The 2B seems to narrow for me and the 3B too wide. So I am also looking for something in between. Searching for the goldy locks zone. Maybe I just need to find a better open mouthpiece for my 2B to fix it. I would like to try a King 2B+ but in my area there are none to test. I might test a Rath .500" trombone. I am also very interested in a Conn Constellation trombone. I think those are very solid where the metal can catch a lot of your breath and where you can really put your feeling and magic into the metal. But also rare to find.

[BGuttman]

I own a King 2B and a King 3B. The 2B seems to narrow for me and the 3B too wide. So I am also looking for something in between. Searching for the goldy locks zone. Maybe I just need to find a better open mouthpiece for my 2B to fix it. I would like to try a King 2B+ but in my area there are none to test. I might test a Rath .500" trombone. I am also very interested in a Conn Constellation trombone. I think those are very solid where the metal can catch a lot of your breath and where you can really put your feeling and magic into the metal. But also rare to find.

Try a Benge 170, Conn 6H, Yamaha 695, or XO 1632. All sized between the 2B and the 3B.

[Doug Elliott]

Mouthpieces can make a huge difference.

Also don't judge all 2B's and 3B's by the particular examples you have. They're all different. There are more open 2B's and tighter 3B's... some almost feel the same.

[composer57]

I see this post has been up for a bit - but I'm a new member. I use my dad's 1938 King 2B SIlvertone for jazz playing. Amazing horn and you can still find the vintage ones out there.

[Macbone1]

Mouthpieces can make a huge difference.

Also don't judge all 2B's and 3B's by the particular examples you have. They're all different. There are more open 2B's and tighter 3B's... some almost feel the same.

So true. I tried 1 each at a convention about 8 years ago. The 2B was open, nimble and fairly big in all registers. The 3B was stuffy, dull, and fought back in the higher register.

[salsabone]

A Selmer Bolero might just fix all of your problems!! I have or have owned almost all of the horns mentioned in this thread. Since Mr. Roy Lawler is no longer crafting his magical trombones(i own a model 3 and a big boy!) a Selmer Bolero is one of the best small bore horns I have ever played. The only trombone that is in my stable that is more resistant to being overblown is my King 3B 100th anniversary Silversonic!

[timbone]

Question is, .500 or .508. The older Conn 6H ,( 8 inch bell, .500) should be in your wheelhouse as well as the 48H. No one has mentioned Courtois and the 430T (.500, 7 3/4 bell) and AC402T (8" yellow bell) and 402TRR (red brass bell) should be contenders. The 402 series is using a heavier slide and puts out a lot of sound. Delfeayo Marsalis plays a 402TRR as well as Doug Beavers. Check out Doug's video of SOL and some of his recent studio videos.

[DaveAshley]

I have recently discovered a great solution to our concerns.

I picked up a late 40's Martin Committee with a 7.5 inch bell with the number "3" marked above the serial number on the slide, meaning it's a .500 bore. I had 1/2 inch cut off the tuning slide legs to bring the pitch up a tad. It plays similarly to the Urbie, but holds together better in a strong big band.

I got it for only $400. There's one closing on eBay today (5/17) for under that! I might be crazy enough to grab it if nobody else does.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/306934685146