TromboneChat

Nothing profound here, just interesting and wanted to share thoughts.

A little while ago I asked for advice here about a small crack in my 88H's lead pipe, which I had pulled/threaded. Consensus seemed to be that it was fine (it was once I got used to the negligible change in feel from the heavier, threaded receiver and added length), a great pipe, and not worth experimenting with.

Stubborn and curious, I picked up a nickel silver MK42 lead pipe (MK's take on an MV42) that was in stock...a completely different set up from the more open, shorter yellow brass Conn pipe. I had looked at Brass Ark's MV42, per recommendation from Noah, but it would have been a long wait time, and much more than I cared to pay for an experiment.

I've had this 88H in some form since 8th grade, and always got glowing compliments on my tone/sound concept with it. One observation I've had is that I consistently get lost or buried on principal parts. I think a lot of this is just my playing style, but with the 88H, projection and cutting through when needed just felt like an uphill, losing battle, particularly in the community orchestra I play in where the Bass Trombonist has a HUGE, wide, aggressive sound concept. I had the horn rebuilt last year with an Instrument Innovations valve, which improved the horn's resonance, lower register, centering, and overall playability significantly (albeit making the horn a bit heavier and more of an air hog), but left it's original character mostly alone.

My hope with the new lead pipe was that the nickel would add a little more cutting brilliance and crisper articulations, and that the Bach style pipe might add a little more welcomed resistance (to counter the open valve) and focus. Having used the new lead pipe a while, I am a bit conflicted.

Compared to the Conn S, a lot of the warmness and colorful overtones seem to have disappeared, at least behind the bell. The horn also seems noticably less nimble and flexible. Getting clarity at softer dynamics does seem a bit easier, and at louder dynamics, there is a new edge and ring that I think I could get to peel paint if needed. Scary.

However...mission accomplished? I just had a rehearsal with the Star Wars Suite, a Mandalorian Arrangement, and Mars on the program, and our principal horn dropped by to compliment how great I was sounding, mentioning very clear articulations and a powerful, open sound ("like the movies"). We had played together for years, but not the last concert cycle, and I had never gotten that kind of feedback before. They had assumed I had been practicing a ton more, and while I had been working on mindfulness and intentionality with my playing and fundamentals...not diligently enough to transform my playing.

I suppose my takeaway has been that the MK42 doesn't *feel* natural on the 88H, but has transformed it (for me) into a much more effective principal orchestral horn. The stock leadpipe will be kept around in case I ever get chamber opportunities again.

I wouldn't want to use a 42 leadpipe on an 88H. If you wanted silver the Edwards Alessi pipe, or artist pipe, now, I guess, would probably be a better match.

I'm not surprised it doesn't feel quite right for you, but also not surprised it sounds better out front. The enigma of the Bach 42 is that it feels terrible to play but good examples somehow sound great out in the audience, though you'd never know it behind the bell!

I agree with Harrison. Another good option for your 88H would be the nickel GR tenor pipe by MK Drawing.

This makes me wish that BAC or whoever would start making the 8H-SP style, Minick Legit, and Minnick Open leadpipes that Kanstul used to make for .547 bore horns.

jjenkins wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:26 pm I agree with Harrison. Another good option for your 88H would be the nickel GR tenor pipe by MK Drawing.

I'm intrigued. I passed over the GR because I figured it would be too close to my "good" standard pipe to be worth it. I think I expected a Bach style to tighten up and focus the sound more, and switching to Nickel to add a little extra "zing" that I could do with or without.

Do you think more of what's being heard out front is the material difference than the pipe design?

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:21 pm I wouldn't want to use a 42 leadpipe on an 88H. If you wanted silver the Edwards Alessi pipe, or artist pipe, now, I guess, would probably be a better match.

I'm not surprised it doesn't feel quite right for you, but also not surprised it sounds better out front. The enigma of the Bach 42 is that it feels terrible to play but good examples somehow sound great out in the audience, though you'd never know it behind the bell!

I wouldn't say it plays terribly! I would compare it to driving (from what I've heard) a Dodge Viper...visceral, a little rough, but powerful...while the Conn standard is something like a nice, modern Toyota...smooth, reliable, enough power, great handling, but will let you down accelerating onto the highway or at the drag strip.

The GR tenor pipe venturi is closer to that of a Conn 88H than the Bach 42 venturi, which is much narrower.

dj4eagle wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:08 pm
I wouldn't say it plays terribly!

Well, of course not -- you only have one component from the 42 design. The rest of it is an 88H still!

The whole point of a Bach 42 is to swap out parts like Theseus' ship until you don't have a Bach 42 anymore. Doing the opposite is unusual!

Interesting choice - we've only made a handful of nickel large bore pipes and haven't really been terribly excited about the way they have played on large bore instruments. Glad it's working for you, though! A seamed red brass 88H pipe has been the best, imo, in our red belled large bore trombone.

tbonesullivan wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:58 pm This makes me wish that BAC or whoever would start making the 8H-SP style, Minick Legit, and Minnick Open leadpipes that Kanstul used to make for .547 bore horns.

We have Kanstul "BB," "Minick Legit," and "Minick Open" pipes available, from measurements taken directly from mint condition Kanstul pipes. We haven't seen one of the 8HSP pipes come through, but would be happy to duplicate it and make available if somebody has one. [email protected]

There is no reason why a nickel Bach style pipe cannot work on a Conn style instrument. If it suits the players needs.
The leadpipe affects the initial "blow" of the instrument, and to some extent the sound "brightness" profile. A tighter Bach style pipe would potentially provide more "focus" and cleaner articulations, compared to a Conn style pipe. Both of those qualities would be further enhanced by the use of nickel silver, as well as add some "brightness" on the top of the sound in general, compared to brass.
I've made a couple of all red brass and nickel silver, "Conn style" tenors that really came alive with a nickel 42 style pipe.
It's all about finding the right overall balance for that horn and the particular player.

I use a stock 42 pipe in my 8/88H slide and absolutely love it. It really allows the horn to project more and gives me a wider range or color.

I've also used a nickel MK42 pipe for a hot minute. It played great. Gave me crisper articulations, focused sound and even more projection. I would've kept it for solo work but I don't do solo work often enough to make it worth keeping it.

I think Bach type pipes give my Conns a more balanced sound.

Thrawn22 wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 9:12 am I use a stock 42 pipe in my 8/88H slide and absolutely love it. It really allows the horn to project more and gives me a wider range or color.

I've also used a nickel MK42 pipe for a hot minute. It played great. Gave me crisper articulations, focused sound and even more projection. I would've kept it for solo work but I don't do solo work often enough to make it worth keeping it.

I think Bach type pipes give my Conns a more balanced sound.

I think an MK42 in a more traditional material would rock! Since I posted, I've been focusing a little more on fundamentals and good warmups with mine, and it's becoming much more enjoyable. Being able to lock in notes at ppp and still hear them clearly is incredible. Never gotten such consistency and power out of the instrument.