TromboneChat

I've been playing trombone for 5 month and i cant reach A4 B4
any tips?

It took me 3 years to reach G4. Have patience, and keep trying. There are exercises to help build your range, but get them under the assistance of a teacher.

Yeah, you can gain quite a lot of range by consistently using the correct mechanics for your embouchure. You can either take 10 years to learn that for yourself, maybe, or get a lesson with the right person who knows how to assess and teach embouchure mechanics to help you learn the mechanics in a few months.

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 1:45 pm Yeah, you can gain quite a lot of range by consistently using the correct mechanics for your embouchure.

This.

If you have good mechanics those notes (and above) become easy. Those notes should take almost no effort if you’re doing things right. Get a good teacher.

tbdana wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 3:15 pm

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 1:45 pm Yeah, you can gain quite a lot of range by consistently using the correct mechanics for your embouchure.

This.

If you have good mechanics those notes (and above) become easy. Those notes should take almost no effort if you’re doing things right. Get a good teacher.

And a follow on, possibly less popular opinion, but definitely true for me -- it might not be possible to use your embouchure "correctly" with a mainstream mouthpiece size.

I wear a US size 14.5 shoe, and I play a 2G width (not depth!) mouthpiece. I could not physically play conventional mouthpieces without jaw pain and a severely restricted range, any more than I can wear conventional size shoes and not get foot injuries.

Mechanics and mouthpiece size sometimes go hand in hand

Harrison: would you say you’ve got an unusually big embouchure?

Bach5G wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:53 pm Harrison: would you say you’ve got an unusually big embouchure?

Sounds like there is something of Harry's that is unusually big.

Serious question. I’ve tried one rim (DE 102, then 104, and now back to 102) and matching the mouthpiece to the horn (plugged a Bach 11C into my 2B - that sounded nice).

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 1:45 pm Yeah, you can gain quite a lot of range by consistently using the correct mechanics for your embouchure. You can either take 10 years to learn that for yourself, maybe, or get a lesson with the right person who knows how to assess and teach embouchure mechanics to help you learn the mechanics in a few months.

Truth! In one lesson Doug Elliott really opened my eyes to what I need to be doing. Heck, even what he thought I might need to do end up being correct as well!

Bach5G wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:53 pm Harrison: would you say you’ve got an unusually big embouchure?

I don't know. I think it's because I have a significant overbite (top teeth past lower jaw), and long top teeth. I have a high placement, downstream type embouchure which apparently is a type that lends itself towards larger rim diameters. I can't play like Joe, but I play similarly to the way he does, if that makes sense. I think he is even higher placement though. And truth be told his mouthpiece diameter works for me but is ever so slightly too wide for my taste. Measured against DE setups, where a DE XT106 = 1.060, his 1C mouthpiece is like 1.067 and mine is 1.055. Take that with a huge grain of salt, as I am relying on measurements done by others.

To play on a smaller size like a 5G I have to artificially push my jaw out to be in line with my upper teeth. I did this for my first 15 years of playing, and eventually almost had to quit because I had severe pain and lock jaw.

tbdana wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 5:02 pm

Bach5G wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:53 pm Harrison: would you say you’ve got an unusually big embouchure?

Sounds like there is something of Harry's that is unusually big.

Well, big feet, big sound, they say. Used to be big ego but that's been toppled a long time ago!

Harrison: I don't know. I think it's because I have a significant overbite (top teeth past lower jaw)

Interesting, I have the same overbite issue, and I also only feel comfortable on mouthpieces with larger rims. My mouthpiece placement is fairly high too.

Trombonekla wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:38 pm I've been playing trombone for 5 month and i cant reach A4 B4
any tips?

What syllable are you tonguing with?

JeffBone44 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 2:46 pm

Harrison: I don't know. I think it's because I have a significant overbite (top teeth past lower jaw)

Interesting, I have the same overbite issue, and I also only feel comfortable on mouthpieces with larger rims. My mouthpiece placement is fairly high too.

That's me as well.

Getting Doug Elliott to advise is invaluable. As soon as I started re-adjusting to a much larger rim than I'd be using everything started to 'fall back in place'...and the high range I'd be forever hoping for is now 'just there'. (range all over the horn is solid)

With an overbite, crooked teeth, and a protruding front tooth that forces me to play off-center..I'm playing better than ever thanks to Doug's sage advice.

Better late than never!
Another quote: "Don't die wondering!"

Get some sage advice!

robcat2075 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 10:09 am

Trombonekla wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:38 pm I've been playing trombone for 5 month and i cant reach A4 B4
any tips?

What syllable are you tonguing with?

Umm..tu tu tu

Trombonekla wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2025 9:27 pm

robcat2075 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 10:09 am
What syllable are you tonguing with?

Umm..tu tu tu

Well, that is already a plan for failure right there.

You WILL find method books and teachers and even highly touted volumes on pedagogy that recommend a beginner start with "tu" but that is wrong. I was started on "tu" and that was the cause of many years of poor sound... and poor range.

I was playing for about four years before I discovered that "tah" produced a vastly better sound, although at the time i did not fully discern what i was doing differently. The mental image I had of what I was doing ("opening my throat") did not truly describe what was new. If you had asked what my tonguing syllable was, I might have still said "tu".

But that is wrong.

"Tah" should be the beginner syllable for middle range notes, then when range becomes an issue... a broader spectrum of useful syllables should be introduced.

Using the right syllable for the right pitch is key to better tone, better range and better fleixibility..

The vowels that you silently voice after "t" are really about altering airspace of your breathing tract, especially the size of the opening between the back of your tongue and the roof of your mouth. However, there is no good metric for describing that. "Vowels" are more easily communicated.

This chart sketches out some approximate landmark pitches for where each vowel is optimum. Below the chart are example of common words that demonstrate the vowel if it were being spoken aloud in unaccented, Midwestern English. Of course, you are NOT audibly voicing these vowels into your horn.

High notes are more easily attained with "ee" and "khhh". Low notes will speak and sound more clearly with "oh".

The vowel for the highest range isn't much of a vowel at all. Imagine making the "k" sound and continuing the air flow. It is rather like the "ch" sound in standard German but has no ready equivalent in English.

Why does this work? The physics of brass playing are not fully investigated.

Notice that "tu" has no place on this chart. "Tu" creates a poor and congested tone. it remains possible to do any of these syllables wrong and still create a poor sound, but "tu" guarantees it.

You WILL have to output a lot of air to sustain the low "oh" notes. Your torso muscles WILL have to work hard to push air through the tiny opening created by "ee" and "khhh". These may be the origin of the vague nonsense i heard in lessons about "the diaphragm" and "columns of air".



I notice previous commenters have urged you to get a teacher. Some even went the extra mile and said to get a good teacher! It is fair advice but hollow since you, as a beginner, have no means to know if a teacher is good or not.

In my trombone life i had nine teachers that i had weekly lessons with. At every point, from the beginning band teacher in sixth grade to the distinguished head of the trombone faculty in graduate school, I would have said "he is a good teacher", yet each saw me struggle with high notes and had no advice beyond "keep working on it".

Every one of them should have instructed me on these syllables and vowels. Years of poor range and poor sound could have been averted by this, but they did not mention it. The unfortunate reality is that fine players rarely make fine teachers. Fine players are often at a loss to explain how they do what they do.

And the bad players probably don't recognize that "tu" is making you sound lousy.

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:43 pm RangeVowels.jpg

That's an interesting chart. I don't see anything wrong with it. But I wonder how our brothers in the trumpet and tuba sections use vowels. Does the whole chart shift octaves with the instrument, or are they just extending the chart left and right?

Notice that "tu" has no place on this chart. "Tu" creates a poor and congested tone.

Doesn't "tu" come from Arbans, and represents a French vowel we don't have in English? I'm not sure I even know what it's supposed to sound like.

AtomicClock wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 9:46 pm

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2025 3:43 pm RangeVowels.jpg

... I wonder how our brothers in the trumpet and tuba sections use vowels. Does the whole chart shift octaves with the instrument, or are they just extending the chart left and right?

That is an interesting question, along with how do different mouthpieces or bores affect the placement?

My experimentation with my tuba suggests that the vowels approximately shift with the pitch of the horn but... I'm not a hard-charging tuba player and I haven't made a big study of it.

I'll note that these vowels are not about just the vowel, they also imply miming different pitches in the throat. "Oh" suggests a low pitch, "ee" suggests a high pitch. Put your hand on your throat and feel your larynx moving as you sing this and then "sing" it silently...
I believe this altering of the voice box is part of tuning the throat for range and tone.

Matching a silent pitch in the throat with the pitch being played is something flute teachers explicitly talk about, both for making a note speak properly and for a resonant tone.

Notice that "tu" has no place on this chart. "Tu" creates a poor and congested tone.

Doesn't "tu" come from Arbans, and represents a French vowel we don't have in English? I'm not sure I even know what it's supposed to sound like.

Yeah, it's in Arban's... and the First Division Band Method i had in sixth grade... and the instrumental pedagogy textbook I had in college. They should all be burned. It is building-in failure from the outset.

When I took French in college, the native-French-speaking teacher never pronounced "tu" anything like "tah" and i doubt there was ever a French "dialect" that did so. French "tu" is very close to our English "too". I think Arban's "tu" is just carelessness made canon.

We don't know what Arban sounded like but I suspect anyone who plays a brass instrument with decent sound and decent range today is using these vowels, possibly without realizing that they are doing so. If they are still teaching "tu," it's because that's what they were taught to teach.

Teachers who say one thing and do another, who do something without knowing how they do it, are painfully and egregiously common in music education.

At the top of my range, my tongue is very high. I can't imagine raising it any further (going past eeee). I suppose that means if I improve my range, the tongue will find a lower home on that note, saving eeee for the new highest.

I've seen "tsss" for very high notes. Try just saying that to get the tongue position.

All this talk about vowels is useful. But for me, the one very most vital and important element of playing high notes is air speed and a light touch. For me, that's the whole enchilada.

If you play high and soft there's no "air speed."
Air speed is irrelevant.
Light touch, yes.

In another long-ago discussion I wrote that most of brass pedagogy is just slogans and anecdotes.

"Air speed" is one of those common slogans that I take a dim view of. It communicates almost zero for a student to act on.


Way back when... I recall hearing it at high school trombone "clinic".

The hipster teaching the clinic has us blow on our palm with our mouth wide open and then with our lips pressed together.

High school physics class Robert had heard of the Venturi principle, by which gases move faster through small openings. "Is it like that?" he wonders.

Hipster has never heard of "Venturi". He says "air speed" is "moving the air faster!"

But high school trombone player Robert know that he expels more air to sustain a low F than for a high F. "Is that all wrong? Should i somehow be using up the air even faster to play high?" he wonders.

The pressed-together lips did make air that sounds faster but... pressing my lips together tighter isn't getting me much in higher range. And it's not like I was trying to play trombone with my mouth wide open, anyway.

Somehow trombone hipster is able to effortlessly play his pentuple high Bb's and C's and what-not so there must be something to what he is saying but... what he is saying isn't actually very instructive.

It will take me another 20-30 years to recognize it was a hopelessly inadequate description of what needs to done.

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:09 am When I took French in college, the native-French-speaking teacher never pronounced "tu" anything like "tah" and i doubt there was ever a French "dialect" that did so. French "tu" is very close to our English "too". I think Arban's "tu" is just carelessness made canon.

There is a specific way Parisian French pronounce "tu" that has no English equivalent. It's a much more nasal and "forward" vowel placement.

The greater part of this discussion has centered upon diction and correct syllabic pronunciation when playing the trombone. It reminded me that we are all actually singers [vocalists ?] with misplaced vocal cords --- our vocal cords being our lips. Emory Remington [I revered the man but he had a terrible singing voice !] sang along with virtually every note his students played but was still able to communicate the vocal connection that was so essential to producing a beautiful trombone sound ---- with style. Surely, there are other vexing considerations as we all wrestle with bringing our brass "tools" to heel, but by embracing the vocal connection I mentioned I believe a greater musical result will be the reward. Just a thought -------------

Has anyone who does videos with see through mouthpieces studied just the aperture and if there are commonalities in what happens through various ranges among most players?

My intuition is that all the syllables, talk of air and everything else are ways we get the aperture in a position to vibrate at the desired frequency. (I guess I have to ask if the lips actually vibrate near or at the frequency of the pitch produced? I don’t know this as a proven proposition, just that it makes sense.)

I did a few searches and couldn’t find anything online, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there, just that my googling needs refining.

robcat2075 wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:09 am

AtomicClock wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 9:46 pm
... I wonder how our brothers in the trumpet and tuba sections use vowels. Does the whole chart shift octaves with the instrument, or are they just extending the chart left and right?

That is an interesting question, along with how do different mouthpieces or bores affect the placement?

My experimentation with my tuba suggests that the vowels approximately shift with the pitch of the horn but... I'm not a hard-charging tuba player and I haven't made a big study of it.

And some experimentation with a cornet suggest the same.

Using "eee" I was easily able to sound the upper range on the same partials.
I couldn't get them at all with "ah"

High C? I squeaked one out but that would be a matter for further study... which i'm not going to do. My ears are already ringing from 5 minutes of research.

I'm not sure where to post this, so I'll stick it here. It can be hard to believe that playing high (or changing partials at all) is an air thing instead of a chops thing. But the woodwinds take chops completely out of the equation, by replacing them with reeds. So it must be true.

Here's a woodwind without any keys, playing the harmonic series, about like I can on trombone:


I wonder if something like that would make a good practice tool for a brass player. I don't know anything about WW embouchures, except recorder is supposed to be easy. But I don't know if recorders even overblow like that.