TromboneChat

I've got a pile of small bores I'm not using, and I've been wanting a valve on one of them.

24h
6h
48h
Recording
Getzen 3508
32h

The 24h is probably too small. That's a high note horn anyway.
The 6h would be a good candidate. It's not a great horn as it is, so rearranging it could be an improvement.
The 48h is great just the way it is. It would be a rocket ship with a valve.
The Recording might be a good candidate. There are factory Recording w/F, but they are a whole different horn.
The Getzen I don't want to change.
The 32h might be a good candidate, but maybe too big.

Any ideas?

Why would the 32H be too big? The dual bore could be a help.

I'd probably do the 6H.

GabrielRice wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:44 am Why would the 32H be too big? The dual bore could be a help.

I do go back and forth on this one. I thought the 32h might be too big because I had the slide crook changed to a wider (Yamaha 356) crook, and it gave the horn a broader sound. I don't want something that sounds too close to my 88h w/ 525 slide.

The 6h seems kind of bright for a valve, although I haven't spent a lot of time on this one.

The R-15 Recording is my go-to outdoor instrument, but a conversion would cost more than just buying a used R-20.

The 48h might be the best horn for this. It's the small bore I use for legit stuff when I feel like I can get away with it. Dark and fat for a 500 bore. It's really great, and with a valve, it just might be too good to be true.

The other side of this is that I kind of wanted to use an older cheaper horn in case the conversion doesn't improve anything, if you know what I mean. "Cheap" horns in this case mean the Recording and the 6h.

2B?

Bach5G wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:40 am2B?

Don't have one. I want to use something I have. The 24h is roughly the same size, but a different horn. I think that's too small for what I want to use it for (quintet, church gigs).

Another thought: Yam 354. Scores of them around. A little less common are the Yam dual bore trigger horns. A bit of work at the tenon/receiver to fit the .500 slide, and Bob’s yer uncle.

Bach5G wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 11:23 am Another thought: Yam 354. Scores of them around. A little less common are the Yam dual bore trigger horns. A bit of work at the tenon/receiver to fit the .500 slide, and Bob’s yer uncle.

I've looked at the 356 and 456. I owned a 455, and actually liked it. Also had a 350c and was a little iffy about that. I'm generally not a big Yamaha fan. The 500/525 bores w/f are enticing, but it's that Yamaha sound that I have a hard time with. The 455 was good, but I'd hope for a lighter sound. You can get the 456 from Japan for $800 - 1200 or so used and in good shape. The good thing about that is that I wouldn't have to have any custom work done.

My Yamaha 852 (a factory Custom-line F attachment version of the 352) is one of my best playing, best sounding horns.

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:55 pm My Yamaha 852 (a factory Custom-line F attachment version of the 352) is one of my best playing, best sounding horns.

I've had at least one higher end Yamaha that was very respectable. 891, I think. Where would you begin to get an 852?

My last experience with a 3b was pretty bad. It had a wrinkled knuckle and played like heartburn. Maybe I'll go to ATW this year and see what's available.

I see a 356F (M-1, so it’s been around) for sale on Marketplace for not too much money. I assume a bit of work at the tenon/receiver so that a Yam 354 (single bore .500”) slide would fit, but that should be fairly inexpensive. I wonder how it would sound/play?

Somebody must have tried this.

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 1:12 pm

I've had at least one higher end Yamaha that was very respectable. 891, I think. Where would you begin to get an 852?

My last experience with a 3b was pretty bad. It had a wrinkled knuckle and played like heartburn. Maybe I'll go to ATW this year and see what's available.

Japan only model from the '80s, came up on ebay. Haven't seen one before or since.

I think you should buy this to put a valve on. You'd be the only one in the world with one!

Otherwise, I'd vote for the 6H or 48H.

Bach5G wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 1:13 pm I see a 356F (M-1, so it’s been around) for sale on Marketplace for not too much money. I assume a bit of work at the tenon/receiver so that a Yam 354 (single bore .500”) slide would fit, but that should be fairly inexpensive. I wonder how it would sound/play?

Somebody must have tried this.

The 356 is actually a large bore chassis, though it has an appropriately sized valve at .530”. But the tuning slides are indistinguishable from their 5xx large and 6xx medium bore offerings as best I can tell. So it would play much bigger than a 354

Finetales wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 5:39 pm I think you should buy this to put a valve on. You'd be the only one in the world with one!

Otherwise, I'd vote for the 6H or 48H.

Yeah, well, uh, you know, uhhh... no. I'm sure its a great horn, but I don't know anything about it. Wouldn't want to be the only one. Maybe I can paint the 6h black instead.

Depending on your budget, and why you don't want to change the Getzen: one consideration would be to get another Getzen 3508Y bell and tuning slide and have a valve section fabricated for it. The Getzen parts have historically been very reasonably priced. This very closely resembles my setup, and it works beautifully. I used the body of a 607F but if I had the budget at the time, I probably would have preferred to use a stock Getzen 3508Y as the base.

Or, again depending on why you don't want to change the Getzen but are willing to make minor modifications, you could make the Getzen modular. The more expensive, but trivial easy approach here would be to buy two Edwards straight goosenecks, and an Edwards slide tenon and make your bell modular. Then have your tech add a valve to one of the two goosenecks.

Ordering the parts for a 3508Y neckpipe and the necessary mounting hardware would not be a difficult thing for a tech to aquire, and would be almost certainly cheaper than that. It would give you essentially the same 3508Y you have but with the optional F attachment.

SweeneyBrass is putting a valve on a 6H for me since Yamaha won’t do it to my 891…Will share photos and impressions once it arrives. Very stoked.

RJMason wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 1:25 am SweeneyBrass is putting a valve on a 6H for me since Yamaha won’t do it to my 891…Will share photos and impressions once it arrives. Very stoked.

Wow, I look forward to seeing that. Sweeney isn't too far from me.

I am curious what valve you are planning to use (and Ray, what valve Sweeny is using) for this?

Blabberbucket wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:05 am I am curious what valve you are planning to use (and Ray, what valve Sweeny is using) for this?

I wasn’t too picky, but wanted something a little smaller and not go way larger on a .500. I also liked the voight valve on the rath small bores and the rotor on the Williams 7 isn’t too big, so didn’t mind something smaller. He found a new old stock German made rotor in his parts collection which fits the bill.

Would you guys make a small horn with a valve?

RJMason wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:59 pm Would you guys make a small horn with a valve?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do here. Or buy one already set up.

Another question. How do you handle the lever? 3bf style? It seems its either that or move the brace back. What's Sweeney gonna do?

I know someone who had a plug-in valve made for a 6H/48H. Maybe that would be interesting as it‘s non-destructive and could be potentially used on both horns, subject to checking the compatibility of tuning slides.

MrHCinDE wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 11:39 pm I know someone who had a plug-in valve made for a 6H/48H. Maybe that would be interesting as it‘s non-destructive and could be potentially used on both horns, subject to checking the compatibility of tuning slides.

Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. Still have the problem of where the lever goes, though...

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:24 pm

RJMason wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:59 pm Would you guys make a small horn with a valve?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do here. Or buy one already set up.

Another question. How do you handle the lever? 3bf style? It seems its either that or move the brace back. What's Sweeney gonna do?

I don’t necessarily dig the feel of the old Conn braces with the grooves in it. So taking inspiration from some old Minick and new K&H designs to have a braces and a lever that don’t touch the face and feel comfortable. My hands aren’t too large though, so I’m not sure how this would change the equation.

It’s worth mentioning that this is less of an add valve to a stock 6H and keep it as original as possible and more of a “if Larry Minick was convinced to do a .500 bore with a valve and had a ‘61 6H in the shop to work with what would he do?”

I’m planning to keep the original slide outers, but also build an additional outer slide in the 2B style, nickel with yellow king style crook aka Greenhoe GC2 (just built with better parts).

For me I consider Scott to be the Minick of my generation so very stoked for the results.

I am one of the select few that seems to like the King linkages and bracing. Though now that I have an Edwards with a bullet brace, I think that's my personal favorite setup. If I were to do my King/Getzen frankenhorn again, I'd probably swap out the lower bell brace for an "S" shaped one or just raise it and put a bullet brace on it w/ a Getzen or similar linkage. It would have been a lot more expensive than what I did though.

I have both small and medium bore horns with valves, and they’re awesome.
Especially way back when I was playing in a bunch of pit orchestras….

I’d do the 48h, that sounds amazing!
I might even think about that for my own Connstellation….

Off-the-wall idea for the trigger - old school German leather thumb strap.
Not necessarily a great idea, but at least different!

I've made disparaging comments about 3bs, but what about a 3bf SS? This would simplify things down to just a question of money. I've read some of the old threads on the differences between brass and sterling 3bs, and like everything, opinions are all over the map. It seems I'd be better off to get something already successful than to change a great straight horn into an iffy F att horn.

Jimkinkella wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:14 pm I have both small and medium bore horns with valves, and they’re awesome.
Especially way back when I was playing in a bunch of pit orchestras….

Pit work is one of the rare places (maybe the only place?) where a small or medium bore with TWO valves wouldn't be unwelcome. Lots of random low Cs popping out of nowhere in an otherwise very much small tenor book (e.g. Cabaret), where even an F-attachment isn't really enough.

It's one of the reasons (the other being "why not?") I'm having a 2-valve small/medium bore made as we speak.

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:41 pm I've made disparaging comments about 3bs, but what about a 3bf SS? This would simplify things down to just a question of money. I've read some of the old threads on the differences between brass and sterling 3bs, and like everything, opinions are all over the map. It seems I'd be better off to get something already successful than to change a great straight horn into an iffy F att horn.

For me, a $450 6H plus $$$$ work is still cheaper than a mint 3BFSS. And you want a mint 3B. Most out there now have wrecked slides, rotted leadpipes, bad joints.

I’ve had Sweeney mod and rebuild my horns for over a decade and never once got one back iffy. Always better than what I sent. King, Conn, Bach, Olds. Only sold them when my sound changed or I needed the cash.

I’ve been a 3B hater for several years now, but should’ve grabbed a mint 3BF I tried in Bend last summer for $1100. Played a mint ‘66 SS last week, tremendous horn. And just played a 90s 3BF that the school I work at owns. Dirty slide, but otherwise mint. Such a good horn!!!

All that to say, if you can find a minty 3BF and you like how it plays that’s the quickest and best option. Otherwise, I’m betting on Sweeney over a $3500 dented 3BFSS on eBay lol

The wrap is finished but we’re experimenting with some other shapes, hopefully get my hands on the project in March.

Sweeney is going to get to convert my 1480 to a plugin valve. I'm leaning toward the 3bfss, which is fairly clean, and not as much as i thought.

Finetales wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:05 pmIt's one of the reasons (the other being "why not?") I'm having a 2-valve small/medium bore made as we speak.

Sandhagen?

JohnL wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:51 pm

Finetales wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:05 pmIt's one of the reasons (the other being "why not?") I'm having a 2-valve small/medium bore made as we speak.

Sandhagen?

You know it!

Curious what bore size do you use for a small bore F-attachment... I would think that you'd want to go for a larger bore size through the valve. Like with my .547 horn, the valve section I had made .562... with a medium bore horn, with F-attachment, it would make sense to go with a .547 bore tube to my thinking.. if this has been discussed at length already, please forgive me.

Finetales wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:18 pm

JohnL wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:51 pm
Sandhagen?

You know it!

The Mad Doctor of Bishop Place!

Do you know what bits he's using?

JohnL wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:55 pm

Finetales wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:18 pm

You know it!

The Mad Doctor of Bishop Place!

Do you know what bits he's using?

I gave him a 3BF and 2 607s to use, along with a weird 9" bass bell that gets small enough at the small end to fit on a 3B. It's going to be modular with a bunch of different options.

I gave him a 3BF and 2 607s to use, along with a weird 9" bass bell that gets small enough at the small end to fit on a 3B. It's going to be modular with a bunch of different options.

Great, now I have something else I didn't know existed that I want to try

tromboneVan wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:41 pm Curious what bore size do you use for a small bore F-attachment... I would think that you'd want to go for a larger bore size through the valve. Like with my .547 horn, the valve section I had made .562... with a medium bore horn, with F-attachment, it would make sense to go with a .547 bore tube to my thinking.. if this has been discussed at length already, please forgive me.

King uses a .530 rotor on their 3BF. The few small bore valve horns that Shires made used a .525 rotor. Something in that range would be ideal.

Finetales wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 8:09 pm

JohnL wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:55 pm
The Mad Doctor of Bishop Place!

Do you know what bits he's using?

I gave him a 3BF and 2 607s to use, along with a weird 9" bass bell that gets small enough at the small end to fit on a 3B. It's going to be modular with a bunch of different options.

I love mad horn science! Post some pics/playing review once you get it back, that horn sounds like it’ll be really cool!

Cmiertschin wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:10 am I love mad horn science! Post some pics/playing review once you get it back, that horn sounds like it’ll be really cool!

I plan to! It will be awhile yet, but I'm excited to see it completed after plotting this project for years.

Finetales wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:25 am

Cmiertschin wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:10 am I love mad horn science! Post some pics/playing review once you get it back, that horn sounds like it’ll be really cool!

I plan to! It will be awhile yet, but I'm excited to see it completed after plotting this project for years.

Excellent; I'm excited to see how it turns out! I've had similar thoughts about a double-valve small tenor (I also play a lot of pits), so I'm glad I'm not the only one.

My 6H project from SweeneyBrass showed up today. Still settling in, but it’s impressive. We messed with the bell flare, cut it, and bent it in ways that feel almost AI-generated…I like it! This is definitely a horn for my own creative endeavors and art.

Initial thoughts:

Scott’s horns always play more even, more in tune, more alive than anything else I’ve tried. Haven’t hit the SoCal techs yet, so maybe there’s someone out here on his level. By the looks of Tiffany’s posts there’s a good possibility.

Initially, it felt weird playing this classic small bore, now with a valve. My brain wants to take everything low when I have a valve. Also weird that it has this thick, rich low end but still screams like a lead horn up top.

A lot of this is mental and muscle memory. Not clicking with it instantly, but I think it’ll unlock something huge. Like a lead pop horn and a mini 72H in one. Wild. Will be so useful in the studio.

This kind of project isn’t for the faint of heart. A 3BF keeps it simple and just gives you the F attachment on a classic design. But converting a small Conn or Bach? I think that is something else entirely. A lot of these parts haven’t rang on these low frequencies before…so like 65 years!

At some point, I’ll slap a valve on my Yamaha. Feels like that horn and its 3B inspired geometry is asking for it. That’s all for now!

Wow, that's cool. I just finally got to actually talk to Scott last week. He's pretty backed up with work, but agreed to take on my 1480 plugin valve project. Based on your 6h, I'm eager to see what he makes of the 1480. The ergo aspect is bad on that horn and adding a valve is an opportunity to balance things out.

My initial plan was for a valve on a small bore, but I've made an acquisition that might scratch that itch, so adding a plugin to a tweener seems the next thing to do.

That horn has me staring at my 6H in entirely new and exciting ways.

That's an odd thing to do to a bell.

Blabberbucket wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 9:32 am That's an odd thing to do to a bell.

I think being odd (i.e., different from what everyone else has) is kinda the point.

Blabberbucket wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 9:32 am That's an odd thing to do to a bell.

Yeah it is. And I would never do this to lets say, Wayne Andre’s 6H. But a 61 I picked up in Indiana for a steal on my travels? Why not. It sings!!!

how much did the conversion cost

john14u wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 1:29 pm how much did the conversion cost

About $2K for the attachment work. Cut bell and slide work push it closer to $2500. Not inexpensive, but if you find a 6H for cheap with a nice slide and keep it traditional, it’s a solid deal for a small bore with an F made with sturdy vintage American parts. A 3BF costs less for sure, but the ones under $1K usually need at least $300–$500 in repairs. Like I said, not for the faint of heart. But for someone after a small bore with a valve that is NOT a 3BF, I’m pretty happy about this horn. I can’t put it down.

Blabberbucket wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 9:32 am That's an odd thing to do to a bell.

LOL! I had a similar thought. It reminds me of the original stuff coming out of BAC - basically function following form. Obviously, a unique little project and perhaps that was exactly what was requested. A One Of A Kind and result.

I want to be crystal clear though, I think Scott Sweeney is nothing like BAC. He is obviously very skilled and has a great reputation.

Blabberbucket wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 9:32 am That's an odd thing to do to a bell.

Yes, design is solid though. The up turn gets you a dizzy like bell to point out at the hall, especially if you are a downstream player. The down bend gets it to fit in a decent space.

Cheers,
Andy