Sierman STB-981CPD

[LoganPlays]

Any info on this brand or this specific model horn? Thanks!

Sierman STB-981CPD

[Posaunus]

Sierman - relatively obscure in the US.A. Appears to be a Chinese product, probably fairly high quality, since it is recommended and sold by Thomann (Germany). New U.S. distributor in Florida, and a few retailers. Not what I'd personally recommend for a college-level trombone performance minor (just because it's an unknown quantity; I know nothing about Sierman!).

Have a discussion with Matt Stoecker (owner of Mighty Quinn) when you're in Washington - he's a professional trombonist and a good resource.

viewtopic.php?t=1718

[LoganPlays]

Sierman - relatively obscure in the US.A. Appears to be a Chinese product, probably fairly high quality, since it is recommended and sold by Thomann (Germany). New U.S. distributor in Florida, and a few retailers. Not what I'd personally recommend for a college-level trombone performance minor (just because it's an unknown quantity; I know nothing about Sierman!).

Have a discussion with Matt Stoecker (owner of Mighty Quinn) when you're in Washington - he's a professional trombonist and a good resource.

viewtopic.php?t=1718

Thank you for the info! Will definitely get in contact with him about that. It’s a pretty horn and caught my eye. Haha!

[UATrombone]

Just curious, is it REAL Hagmann valve or just Chinese copy?

[hornbuilder]

Sierman have a history of questionable ethics, re blatant stealing of other makers designs. Including patented technologies.

[Burgerbob]

They copy some very well known horns, at a weirdly high quality point, including using the real valves (Rotax, hagmann, etc).

[UATrombone]

Sierman have a history of questionable ethics, re blatant stealing of other makers designs. Including patented technologies.

That's why I asked.
Is he the guy, who has tried to buy complete line of GB mouthpieces some time ago to reproduce them under own name?

[UATrombone]

They copy some very well known horns, at a weirdly high quality point, including using the real valves (Rotax, hagmann, etc).

This is very interesting... Does anyone know, how many valves Mr. Hagmann COULD make per year given his regular customers (Bach, Rath and others)?

[hornbuilder]

Yes. Copied the shape, interior and exterior, and even used the same numbering system. Blatantly ripped several ideas from Edwards and Shires, too.

[hornbuilder]

They also ripped Newell Sheridan Get a Grip, too.

Edwards bracing system, conveniently not being shown terribly clearly.

[RJMason]

Tried one in NYC. Played surprisingly well, looked very cool. X wrap with Hagmann. Still for sale, I think folx are afraid to take the leap. Good option for a high school student with dreams of going to college for trombone without breaking the bank. Imagine the resale wouldn’t be so good though…

[Tooloud]

I own a Sierman tenor with a Thayer-copy valve for some years.
Heavy, but solidly built. Bad laquer und nickel-coating on the outside, but the mechanics are fine. The sound is very good, very close to an Edwards. I play-tested both back to back. Since I am mainly a bass-player I did not want to shell out four times the amount for the Edwards considering the minimum differences in sound, I don't use the tenor often enough to justify this.

[Matt K]

Tried one in NYC. Played surprisingly well, looked very cool. X wrap with Hagmann. Still for sale, I think folx are afraid to take the leap. Good option for a high school student with dreams of going to college for trombone without breaking the bank. Imagine the resale wouldn’t be so good though…

I'd feel icky even trying one. I've been two two conventions where they had a booth and haven't even been tempted by it. I don't think most players are as tuned in as we are here though, could be wrong given your observation

[timbone]

To answer UA trombone- Rene
Hagman is up there in age and is making short runs in relatively low volume. So, I can't imagine the Chinese getting any when the European faithful are not.

[UATrombone]

To answer UA trombone- Rene
Hagman is up there in age and is making short runs in relatively low volume. So, I can't imagine the Chinese getting any when the European faithful are not.

Thank you for clarification.
That's what I thought when I've asked my rather rhetorical question with a grain of sarcasm.

[ZacharyThornton]

The only business that I know enough about to never want to give them any money. Incredibly shady all around.

[Tubaaiyue]

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[Tubaaiyue]

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[MStarke]

Just be aware that Siermann (in Taiwan) being Chinese is probably questionnable to a lot of people here in the forum. I would recommend to be a bit cautious with these issues in order to not trigger political discussions that are not wanted at least in this specific forum.

[Doldom]

Aren't the Carol brass/XO Taiwanese and Siermann (mainland) Chinese?
I'm not sure about ZO brand. Maybe also (mainland) Chinese.

[Finetales]

Carol Brass and Jupiter are the only Taiwanese makers of the bunch.

ZO and Sierman are both located in Hebei, in northeastern China. Y-Fort is in Beijing.

Sierman trombones play well and are one of the higher quality Chinese brands, but the top of the line models cost a lot more than a Y-Fort and don't play as well in my opinion.

[Posaunus]

But if I buy a trombone made in China, I would choose CarolBrass/ZO/XO， instead of 斯尔曼（Sierman）

Tubaaiyue,
Thank you for your perspective from China. You probably know more about that area than most of us on this forum.
(Are you in Taiwan or mainland?)
But you seem to be interested in purchasing trombones from U.S.A. and Europe.

[Tubaaiyue]

.

[Doldom]

I am in China mainland . Yes, I am interested in musical instruments from the United States and Europe, because I prefer narrow-bore instruments

If you're interested in small bore with F attachment, and if you can buy from Taiwan, then maybe you can also consider this from Carolbrass. They have 0.508 bore trombone with F attachment. I don't know the quality of this very model, but from my experience with their large bore model, their large bore was not the most orchestral sounding trombone, but the feel and blow was pleasant, and definetely better than student grade trombones out there.
https://www.carolbrass.com/show_product ... E5CB930059

If you're just looking for straight small bore trombones then there's a ton of options out there.

[harrisonreed]

Is Sierman calling their valves Hagmann's but they really are knock off's? Or is Sierman just making Hagmann style valves -- surely that patent expired long ago...it came out in 1990.
*Edit* looks like it really does say Hagmann on their site. So what's the verdict on that?

Same with the Get a Grip, I've seen their version, but they aren't calling it a Sheridan Get a Grip, they're calling it just a leather trombone grip. Again, I feel like I've been hearing about that thing since the early 2000's, that patent is also likely long gone. There are at least two other non-chinese versions of the same exact thing but those versions don't seem to get any flak and I don't think it would be justified anyway.

If someone wanted to they could make a copy of the CL2000 rotor and call it the Crusteon Longboard CL2026 valve and they probably would be okay (might get in trouble for picking a name too close to the original though). That patent expired too.

If Sierman is using the trademark names for stuff they make themselves that's really bad and blatant deception. But otherwise ... I mean, that is the whole point of patents not lasting forever. Imagine if the patent for "trombone" lasted forever and the guy with the patent only made really bad trombones. Also, booo "axial valve" -- shame on all boutique makers for ripping off the Thayer valve (not really, we love you and your axial valves, boutique makers).

The only one that looks maybe illegal to me is the edge bracing picture, but not the actual edge bracing (came out in 2001. If it was allowed to be patented, I don't know if it was unique enough, it would be expired) -- that picture has what looks like a harmonic bridge as well. That I believe came out in 2007 or 2008, so if it was patented, that would likely still be protected. Again if they are calling that "Edwards Edge Bracing", that's really bad. But they aren't right?

I guess it comes down to if those are genuine Hagmann valves or not, and if that is a ripped off harmonic bridge, and the Edwards version is still protected by law.

[Tubaaiyue]

Is Sierman calling their valves Hagmann's but they really are knock off's? Or is Sierman just making Hagmann style valves -- surely that patent expired long ago...it came out in 1990.
*Edit* looks like it really does say Hagmann on their site. So what's the verdict on that?

Same with the Get a Grip, I've seen their version, but they aren't calling it a Sheridan Get a Grip, they're calling it just a leather trombone grip. Again, I feel like I've been hearing about that thing since the early 2000's, that patent is also likely long gone. There are at least two other non-chinese versions of the same exact thing but those versions don't seem to get any flak and I don't think it would be justified anyway.

If someone wanted to they could make a copy of the CL2000 rotor and call it the Crusteon Longboard CL2026 valve and they probably would be okay (might get in trouble for picking a name too close to the original though). That patent expired too.

If Sierman is using the trademark names for stuff they make themselves that's really bad and blatant deception. But otherwise ... I mean, that is the whole point of patents not lasting forever. Imagine if the patent for "trombone" lasted forever and the guy with the patent only made really bad trombones. Also, booo "axial valve" -- shame on all boutique makers for ripping off the Thayer valve (not really, we love you and your axial valves, boutique makers).

The only one that looks maybe illegal to me is the edge bracing picture, but not the actual edge bracing (came out in 2001. If it was allowed to be patented, I don't know if it was unique enough, it would be expired) -- that picture has what looks like a harmonic bridge as well. That I believe came out in 2007 or 2008, so if it was patented, that would likely still be protected. Again if they are calling that "Edwards Edge Bracing", that's really bad. But they aren't right?

I guess it comes down to if those are genuine Hagmann valves or not, and if that is a ripped off harmonic bridge, and the Edwards version is still protected by law.

Sierman uses real Hagmann valves. I have seen the actual product
The Thayer used by sierman is a copy of theirs, and the quality is decent
I haven't studied harmonic bridge, so I don't know the specific situation

[Tubaaiyue]

I am in China mainland . Yes, I am interested in musical instruments from the United States and Europe, because I prefer narrow-bore instruments

If you're interested in small bore with F attachment, and if you can buy from Taiwan, then maybe you can also consider this from Carolbrass. They have 0.508 bore trombone with F attachment. I don't know the quality of this very model, but from my experience with their large bore model, their large bore was not the most orchestral sounding trombone, but the feel and blow was pleasant, and definetely better than student grade trombones out there.
https://www.carolbrass.com/show_product ... E5CB930059

If you're just looking for straight small bore trombones then there's a ton of options out there.

OK Thanks！