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rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 10:55 am
by jackowa
What's the strangest rotor designs you've ever seen? Pro's and Con's?
If you want to share your custom stuff I'll be glad to see it!

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:56 am
by harrisonreed
Holton monster "anti-tank" valve. Weird as heck.

The Shires trubores are weird to me, too.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 12:55 pm
by mcphatty00
The Holton "monster" is mighty odd

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 1:00 pm
by Burgerbob
Super strange one is the Holton Monster valve

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 2:02 pm
by stewbones43
I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 2:41 pm
by mcphatty00
I'm kinda bummed I've never run into one. It at least looks worth trying out.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 2:44 pm
by JohnL
The Olds rotor design with an internal spring and a hidden stop looks really clean, but the little O-ring on the stop post doesn't last all that long. You have to disassemble the valve to replace the o-ring. I carry spare o-rings and a rawhide mallet in my mute bag and can replace a bumper in under five minutes. Since the back bearing is not accessible, they drilled the screw hole extra deep and put in a cross passage at the bearing; to oil the back bearing, you remove the screw and drip oil down the hole.

Olds also made some French horns with dual-stop rotors and a system for taking up end play. They were made just before WWII and were not reintroduced after the war, so they're quite rare.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 3:10 pm
by Bonearzt
Weirdest design I've seen is where the tubing slides side to side to engage the F section!

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 4:35 pm
by tbonesullivan
Bonearzt wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 3:10 pm Weirdest design I've seen is where the tubing slides side to side to engage the F section!
Oh yeah! I remember that one. I mean, it was an interesting design, but I can't imagine that it sealed particularly well. I stopped hearing about them.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 4:53 pm
by BGuttman
I nominate the Bach K valve. Unless you had a pretty skinny neck it would dig in. Played pretty well, if you could tolerate it.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:15 pm
by Slidennis
Hulot valve, from a french brass tech who patented it years ago :

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 5:37 am
by harrisonreed
The Yamaha Japan-only rotor is also weird, as is the Yamaha Bousfield rotor:
s55_0572.jpg
ccb_0244.jpg


But this one takes the cake -- a no rotor f attachment:

PhuAhgn.jpg

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 8:56 am
by elmsandr
stewbones43 wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 2:02 pm I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones
Well, probably more annoyed that the design wasn’t optimized in the way he intended. Production models were more like functional prototypes.

Speaking of which, I’d like to have another 1 or 2 to build the forbidden double…

Cheers,
Andy

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:45 am
by brassmedic
Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.


Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 1:37 pm
by ithinknot
brassmedic wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:45 am Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.
Ignoring the separate lever, it's just a cuboid piston.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 4:15 pm
by Dennis
elmsandr wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:56 am
stewbones43 wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 2:02 pm I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones
Well, probably more annoyed that the design wasn’t optimized in the way he intended. Production models were more like functional prototypes.

Speaking of which, I’d like to have another 1 or 2 to build the forbidden double…

Cheers,
Andy
Zig Kanstul incorporated most of the ideas from the Monster Valve into his CR (Constant Resistance) valve. It was one of the entrants in Round 2 of the Trombone Valve Wars. I don't understand why Holton released that valve in the state it was in.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 7:12 pm
by hornbuilder
The CR is "Nothing" like the Monster. The CR is a Greenhoe valve made with a casing and port inserts, instead of being machined from solid.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 2:46 pm
by jackowa
Appreciate everyone's opinion and the video . More relaxed here than other chat forums

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 3:54 pm
by elmsandr
Dennis wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 4:15 pm
Zig Kanstul incorporated most of the ideas from the Monster Valve into his CR (Constant Resistance) valve. It was one of the entrants in Round 2 of the Trombone Valve Wars. I don't understand why Holton released that valve in the state it was in.
Eh, nah. The monster has three internal pathways, more akin to a Trubore, Hagmann, or the Minick valves.

A brazed construction, sure, but different air paths.

Cheers,
Andy

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 5:01 pm
by Dennis
hornbuilder wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 7:12 pm The CR is "Nothing" like the Monster. The CR is a Greenhoe valve made with a casing and port inserts, instead of being machined from solid.
I'll defer to your expertise, Matt. I'm sure you have disassembled more of both valves than I've seen in person.

In my defense, back in the day I saw images of what may have been CR prototype valves (I think it was on Steve Ferguson's website). The rotor had slightly bent tubing brazed into a pair of skeletonized supporting plates, with a pivot bearing in the center. That's awfully close to the Monster construction, although Andy says the Monster has a third tube--which would explain the crazy diameter of the Holton valve.

Until recently I've not seen later (production?) CR rotors. Those I've seen don't show the skeletonized pivots-and-plates structure I recall from the early CR images.

I do recall looking at the early pictures and wondering how Kanstul was going to build those things.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 11:45 am
by tbonesullivan
ithinknot wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 1:37 pm
brassmedic wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:45 am Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.
Ignoring the separate lever, it's just a cuboid piston.
Maybe a variation of pumpen valve? I mean it's the same basic concept, but rotated 90 degrees.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 6:24 pm
by jonathanharker
As it happens, I've recently been working on a commonplace about trombone valves, mostly for fun, but might one day become an article I'd like to publish somewhere, but more about that later/elsewhere perhaps. Along the way I've been collecting lots of useful diagrams and photos, or creating/taking them where they're not available, for instance:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... e_diagrams

Could anyone who owns any of these weird valves, in particular a monster valve on the Holton TR140, or the Yamaha Bousfield (Minick) or "V" valves, please let me know if they'd be willing to take a nice photo for me/Wikipedia/posterity/future generations (i.e. release it as public domain, or Creative Commons CC-BY if you'd like to retain the photo credit). It would need to be on a plain white background, similar to this one for a Thayer valve. Thanks very much in advance, and just think, your nice photo might grace the pages of a journal some day! :wink:

Image

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 2:12 am
by Digidog
I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:

Image

I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all. As I am on the lookout for a larger horn - a medium 0.525 or maybe a large 0.547 bore - I get very interested in trying their larger horns; especially if they have a new(?) rotor design.

Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 4:06 am
by jonathanharker
harrisonreed wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 5:37 am But this one takes the cake -- a no rotor f attachment:
That's a modern take on John Shaw's swivel valve (British patent 7892, granted 1838).
Shaw_1838_patent_diagram.png
Tomes, F; Klaus, SK; Myers, A (2013) "Shaw, Köhler and the Disc Valve in Britain", The Galpin Society Journal, Vol. 66 (March 2013), pp. 99-116.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 4:49 am
by harrisonreed
Cool. Imagine getting your hair caught in it

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 5:01 am
by jonathanharker
Digidog wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:12 am I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:
Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?
They put a good video of it up, here:

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 8:45 am
by ENBjorn
Why have a valve when you can have no valve?
viewtopic.php?t=20707

Really cool rotorless F-attachment for a super open blowing experience. Never tried it myself, but there's a video on Facebook or YouTube somewhere where Kissbone gives it a run for it's money with a Carnival exerpt. Check it out!

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 2:13 pm
by hornbuilder
The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 2:30 pm
by Doug Elliott
It works for plumbing... water hammer arrestor.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 3:25 pm
by Posaunus
hornbuilder wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:13 pm The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.
But the CL valve works well ... doesn't it? I love the short throw!

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 3:52 pm
by MrHCinDE
Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 4:33 pm
by JohnL
MrHCinDE wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 3:52 pm Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?
Mentioned earlier in the thread...

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 5:04 am
by MrHCinDE
JohnL wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 4:33 pm
MrHCinDE wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 3:52 pm Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?
Mentioned earlier in the thread...
Apologies, I missed it.

Any chance you could create a video of that operation? I’ve recently acquired an Opera and the valve is good for now but I’d appreciate any help for future maintenance.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 5:11 am
by harrisonreed
Digidog wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:12 am I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:

Image

I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all. As I am on the lookout for a larger horn - a medium 0.525 or maybe a large 0.547 bore - I get very interested in trying their larger horns; especially if they have a new(?) rotor design.

Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?
This rotor doesn't include the Maxi Clapper so....

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 7:29 am
by ithinknot
hornbuilder wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 2:13 pm The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.
Obviously they "get away with" the acoustics in that particular application, based on sales/use, but the anomaly can't be an intrinsically good thing even if the otherwise straight passage has some (compensating?) advantages.

It would be interesting to see BIAS tests with the valve as is, and with the hernia plugged...

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 7:36 am
by ithinknot
Digidog wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:12 am I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all.
With apologies for offtopicity... what are they like? The radii look slightly Bachisch, but I've never seen one in the wild.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 5:49 am
by Digidog
ithinknot wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 7:36 am
Digidog wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:12 am I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all.
With apologies for offtopicity... what are they like? The radii look slightly Bachisch, but I've never seen one in the wild.
They felt Bach-y; with a quite centered feel in the bell and a solid feel from the tone in the low register up to medium high, but after that was where my playing obviously didn't suit the horns. I played three, and all felt like they lost broadness and flow of tone above C(5?) and to me they felt unstable above Bb(5?). One explanation to this, could have been the slides - or maybe the leadpipes - which gave me an unstable feel and choke-y sense when trying to play loud and high. I had problems finding a mouthpiece in the store that properly fit the leadpipe insert - almost all wobbled more or less.

This was some ten years ago, and I also remember them feeling well built and of good materials. Since then, I've heard much good about Stomvi, and I'm curious to try newer horns, both smaller and those medium/large with the Titán valve.

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 8:01 am
by ithinknot
Digidog wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 5:49 am They felt Bach-y; [...]
Thanks for the info!

Re: rotor designs

Posted: Tue May 28, 2024 6:39 am
by jackowa
Appreciate everyone .
I am able to make the right choice from your advice
More relaxed here than other chat forums. Welcome . Happy to join the party