TromboneChat

Imagine that your friend is sick and you just got called to sub on a swing band gig tonight, and that they told you you'd be playing the iconic Tommy Dorsey solo on "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You." Imagine further that somehow you've managed to go your whole life without ever performing that solo, and that you don't know this band, except that their whole identity is 1940s. Though you've heard the solo many times, you'll be sight reading it with a swing band you've never played with, rehearsed with, or even heard before. That's the situation I'm in tonight.

Question: How do you interpret that solo?

My gut instinct is to imitate Tommy Dorsey: buttery smooth and delicate, with long phrases and that old-timey fast vibrato on every note longer than an 8th note.



But, you know, it's no longer 1932, and while I've heard a zillion people play this thing, not one of them tried to play it like Dorsey. Must be a reason for that, right? What am I missing? Is it that they can't do that, or they believe they shouldn't? Most often I hear it with either modern vibrato (slower than Dorsey, and only on the last third of long notes) or with very little vibrato at all. Many guys I hear sound like this guy, which to me is very boring and is probably something I want to avoid.



And some guys put a real swing feel on it, with modern vibrato, which I like, but I'll be playing the original chart.



Maybe I should try for an interpretation like Urbie Green did? I like this the best of any "modern" (if you can call Urbie modern) interpretation I've heard, and this is very similar to my natural ballad style so it shouldn't be too difficult.



But somehow I feel like the audience will be familiar only with Tommy Dorsey's iconic rendition, and that the more I sound like Dorsey the better the audience will like it. Or would they? Maybe the audience has moved past that 1930s interpretation? So I'm conflicted, and never having performed it before I'm unsure.

N.B. It's the original Dorsey arrangement in D (not that abomination in Bb). The tune itself is not a challenge. I can play it any way I feel like playing it, and this question is merely one of choosing the right aesthetic. The gig I'm subbing on is at some Elks Lodge or civic facility, so I assume the audience will be a bunch of old fogies my age and older.

If you were in my shoes and could play it any way you felt like (after all, I'm just a sub and they get what they get from me), how would you interpret this tune? What's the best approach for a 1932 tune performed in 2024?

The way Watrous would have played it. Just like Dorsey but with Bill's vibrato.

I don't think it's all that important to match Dorsey's vibrato and style exactly, as long as you play it beautifully. IMHO "beautifully" does mean using some kind of noticeable slide vibrato.

And start in tempo, unless the band is used to you doing something else.

And yes, that stock in D is much better. Usually, what trips a band up is not the trombone solo, but paying attention to the rhythms in the ensemble sections.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:41 pm Maybe the audience has moved past that 1930s interpretation?

Nope. Dorsey's approach is great and audiences will respond appropriately.

If it’s a “swing band”, it’s almost like a symphony orchestra job. They recreate music in the style of its compositional era. Copy Tommy with this group, then explore possibilities another time. The key to the Dorsey sound is the specifics of the vibrato and the absolute consistency of sound throughout the phrase. Swing vibrato is unique to the era and doesn’t sound great in many contexts, but on this repertoire, not doing it this way is just wrong to my ears.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:51 pm The way Watrous would have played it. Just like Dorsey but with Bill's vibrato.

Yeah, that's kind of the Urbie Green approach, which I like.

Wonderful job, good chops. Fun, and I loved listening to it. Sounds like you're playing it in F?

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:41 pm Question: How do you interpret that solo?

Dana,

Unless this is an "all-Dorsey cover band" performance, I think you should play this the way you can best communicate musically. I doubt that a contemporary audience, even of old fogies, is seriously hung up on Dorsey's original style.
[I must admit that I'm partial to Urbie Green's interpretation, but I'm a bit of a dinosaur myself.]

N.B. It's the original Dorsey arrangement in D (not that abomination in Bb).

What's so "abominable" about the Bb version? The key signature per se, or the arrangement that goes along with it?

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:02 pm If it’s a “swing band”, it’s almost like a symphony orchestra job. They recreate music in the style of its compositional era. Copy Tommy with this group, then explore possibilities another time. The key to the Dorsey sound is the specifics of the vibrato and the absolute consistency of sound throughout the phrase. Swing vibrato is unique to the era and doesn’t sound great in many contexts, but on this repertoire, not doing it this way is just wrong to my ears.

What you say resonates with me. Lots of truth in that. And I like the symphony orchestra analogy.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:20 pm What's so "abominable" about the Bb version? The key signature per se, or the arrangement that goes along with it?

It doesn't sound as bright or natural in Bb, and because of the surrender. Mostly because of the surrender. It's a cop-out. The only reason anyone ever wrote that in Bb is because trombonists couldn't play the solo in D. It's a crutch.

My feeling is always that if you can play it, play it. If you can't, go home and practice until you can. But don't make compromises just because you can't play the piece.

Actually, as I understand it, Dorsey played both the D and the Bb versions. The Bb version is much more elegiac and would probably work well as the closing number while the much brighter D version is a good opener.

I like Doug's suggestion of using Watrous' vibrato. It's a nice compromise between the old style and modern style. Sort of like you don't play the Pryor solos exactly like Pryor did 100 years ago; you adopt a more modern style but still in character with the piece. Also, don't go wild with choruses.

I played in a "fogey" band doing senior dances and they handed me the Bb version (that's all the band had). Once I played it they just gave it to me (I'm flattered). Note that what I did is tell the band that I have 4 quarter notes "outside", and I'm going to play them in strict rhythm. That set the piece up nicely and put a major load on me to get those 4 notes right.

Why copy someone else? That's a cop out. Come up with your own interpretation and put Tommy and his nerd version to shame.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:07 pm Why copy someone else? That's a cop out. Come up with your own interpretation and put Tommy and his nerd version to shame.

You're teasing, I'm sure. And I'm sure you know that there's a fairly narrow window of interpretation that would be welcomed, liked, or acceptable. I don't even feel it's appropriate to play with the melody at all, though my natural instinct is to embellish it. This is the original arrangement, by a band playing the style of the time (more or less), so I feel it necessary to to be pretty faithful to the original, with some wiggle room.

Have you heard Dave Steinmeyer's swing at this tune?

Yeah but I know you got the chops though. Not kidding

I would really try to go for the Dorsey style although I also like the Urbie version. But I like this short rendition of Dorsey in the beginning even more than the classic recording:



I actually feel about this a little as in classical music as well, trying to use a historic approach. I just played Black Brown & Beige a few weeks ago on 1st chair. Lots of lovely solo spots in there. I really tried to play the plunger stuff in a Trick Sam Nantonish way as close as I can get there and the other open melodies more like Lawrence Brown style (who played on the only available Ellington recording of that masterpiece that I know of). But it's a matter of taste, I would say. I like digging deeper in such stuff and comparing versions/players.

Oh, the baby Buddy Rich in that video! My goodness! He may actually have been a sane human being at that time. (Naw, what am I thinking? LOL!)

That Steinmeyer version is actually Phil Wilson's version.

I had a friend who was a guest artist one night for a band playing GSOY. He played his first 4 notes, and the band came in a different key. I never got the rest of the story after that, but make sure you're playing the same version.

Are you going to find a bunch of hard core jazz critics at the Elks Club? Probably not. Just play your own style. If you play beautifully and believably, I'm sure you'll pull it off.

Just don't introduce yourself or offer to shake hands.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:02 pm Just don't introduce yourself or offer to shake hands.

LOL! I get it! Nice callback!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:24 pm That Steinmeyer version is actually Phil Wilson's version.

That's classic Phil Wilson! What a great, creative player he was. Dave Steinmeyer's version is truly impressive!

Hi all.

In my opinion , the better thing could be to play this tune matching the musical style of the band you are playing with.

So , if the band is stylistically oriented in the 30'/ 40' , you should play it as every soloist of that period would have played it . Of course , this do not means that you have to play it exactly as Tommy Dorsey did it ! Jack Jenney or Lawrence Brown would have performed it in a different way , I guess ; but always in a "general" style of that period .

Regards
Giancarlo

Yes. We love it. When the Army Ambassadors of Jazz or Airman of Note come through, they’re playing for an audience that is primed for David Steinmeyer. When I play this genre, I try to stick to playing what the audience expects to hear and what they can relate to. This gig doesn’t sound like Telluride Jazz Festival or Shelley’s Manne-Hole.

As Bruce said, hopefully you get to set you own tempo. I think it's best when it feels like a dance tune, but then the saxes sometimes get fumble fingers. Ah heck, why should I care about them?

If you take it as a "buckle polisher" (slow close dance) the saxes should be able to hack the parts. Except maybe if they are in 4 or 5 sharps (D version).

If this came up for me without notice and a chance to at least rehearse the beginning of it prior to the actual gig, I would certainly be pretty nervous about it...

Anyway I think getting close to the Tommy Dorsey interpretation is the safest bet and the most likely style the band will choose.

Have fun!

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:26 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:02 pm Just don't introduce yourself or offer to shake hands.

LOL! I get it! Nice callback!

And if they pull th same dumb stuff at this band, give a full Herb Alpert version:
https://youtu.be/EppROfLeVkg?si=PcZ6ZblltmfO1dxX

Cheers,
Andy

So.

Did the gig.

Turns out there were two features for me. "Sentimental" was the second one, near the end of the second set. The bandleader let me set my own tempo. No count-off, I just started playing and the band came in, which suited me fine. I went more "buckle polisher" and less Tijuana Brass in tempo.

All night long the band (surprisingly good!) had been pretty true to the 30s/40s style, so I opted to play it pretty true; not so much like Tommy Dorsey, a bit more romantic than that but still with fast vibrato, kind of a Dick Nash approach I'd say. Something I hadn't even considered, but in the moment it just felt right. It worked well.

The audience liked it, one table so much that they cheered really loud, and I yelled, "Thanks, mom!" at them from the bandstand. LOL! They ended up tipping me after the gig. A pretty substantial tip; more than what the actual gig paid. Let's hear it for well-to-do drunk old people! Woohoo!

Anyway, thank you for indulging me. I thought it would be fun to see how people would approach the solo if they were in this situation, and I love talking about approaches to music. This was a tune everyone knows and has their own opinion on. Every reply in this thread has been thoughtful, interesting, and legit. I enjoyed reading all the different takes. I really wish this software had a "like button" equivalent so I could acknowledge each post.

Anyway, after you all took the time to give me your thoughts, I thought I owed you a follow-up to let you know how it went. And, of course, I wanted to celebrate getting a tip! It's not often the trombone sub in a big band gets tipped, so hooray! And now I can no longer say I've gone my whole life without performing this solo, which was an odd bit of trivia.

This thread brought forward something I've always worried is a shortcoming of mine, which is that I've never really developed my own style, I'm just someone who can copy a lot of other styles. On one hand that allows me to be pretty versatile, but on the other I'm not a player where people can hear something I play and instantly know it's me. Maybe the dubious virtue of that is something for another discussion. But I enjoyed hearing all the takes on Sentimental. Thanks!

Good job!

Sounds like you had better luck than the last time I played it. A small group I was depping on called it as a feature, but in F!

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:16 am The audience liked it, one table so much that they cheered really loud, and I yelled, "Thanks, mom!" at them from the bandstand. LOL! They ended up tipping me after the gig. A pretty substantial tip; more than what the actual gig paid. Let's hear it for well-to-do drunk old people! Woohoo!

Damn!

I need to perform this more. Well, that is.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:29 pm
Damn!

I need to perform this more. Well, that is.

I think it had to do more with the well-to-do drunk old people.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:15 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:29 pm
Damn!

I need to perform this more. Well, that is.

I think it had to do more with the well-to-do drunk old people.

It's all good when everyone is a happy drunk. All it takes is one mean and/or angry drunk and the party's over.

This is one reason I liked the gigs I did. At 9 AM nobody's drinking, and at any rate Senior Centers don't serve alcohol anyway.

Dana, I'm glad it went well for you.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 8:27 pm This is one reason I liked the gigs I did. At 9 AM nobody's drinking...

At 9 a.m. half the band is still drunk!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 8:27 pm This is one reason I liked the gigs I did. At 9 AM nobody's drinking, and at any rate Senior Centers don't serve alcohol anyway.

Dana, I'm glad it went well for you.

Larksfield has happy hour at 4:00 PM every day. You need to move to Kansas, Bruce. When we’ve played gigs there, mostly Xmas, at 7:00 PM, everyone appears to be within the legal limit.