TromboneChat

My FB feed gets inundated with ads for all kinds of horn related crap. The bell cover from the Covid days is my favorite.

The various buzzing adapters that you clamp onto the leadpipe.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:21 am The various buzzing adapters that you clamp onto the leadpipe.

Perhaps I'm just stupid, but I've never understood how they help.

The LeFreque plates have to rank up there.

The Pocket Rocket deserves a mention.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:39 am The Pocket Rocket deserves a mention.

What's that?

A piece of wood with metal pillars in it that sits in your pocket. To ... Increase the tone and resonance of the instrument is not attached to....

Not tried one but this looks like mumbo jumbo…… https://www.lefreque.com/downloads/choo ... df?q=47144

May be wrong if you know better?

I know several flute and trumpeters who swear by the LeFreque plates. It's a weight that you add to the instrument so it's a real effect.

officermayo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:29 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:21 am The various buzzing adapters that you clamp onto the leadpipe.

Perhaps I'm just stupid, but I've never understood how they help.

I agree, I don’t find them very helpful… but, the idea is that you can practice the slide positions/fingerings as you buzz, to help you lock in the pitches you’re buzzing (get the best tone/intonation by actually buzzing the correct pitch) when you put the mouthpiece back in the horn.

There’s also a little plastic ring you can adjust to get the resistance to be more like your horn than just the mouthpiece. I achieve the same basic effect by putting my finger partially over the end of the mouthpiece if/when I buzz.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:39 am The Pocket Rocket deserves a mention.

I hate to say it but... These absolutely work.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:15 am

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:39 am The Pocket Rocket deserves a mention.

I hate to say it but... These absolutely work.

The placebo effect is real.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:23 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:15 am

I hate to say it but... These absolutely work.

The placebo effect is real.

No, I will fight back on that. Any weight you add to an instrument will change the feedback and sound. That's what Lefreque is as well.

The effect I found was really quite drastic, and it was on a 300 dollar Chinese baritone.

Does it mean I'd buy one? No. But it's the same thing as a counterweight, Calder tone halo, Sauer brace, the list goes on.

<...pauses to look in his closet...> I find the JoRal brass shortcut to be particularly useless.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:34 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:23 am

The placebo effect is real.

No, I will fight back on that. Any weight you add to an instrument will change the feedback and sound. That's what Lefreque is as well.

The effect I found was really quite drastic, and it was on a 300 dollar Chinese baritone.

Does it mean I'd buy one? No. But it's the same thing as a counterweight, Calder tone halo, Sauer brace, the list goes on.

Wait. The pocket rocket just sits in your pocket. It doesn't touch the instrument you are playing.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:34 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:23 am

The placebo effect is real.

No, I will fight back on that. Any weight you add to an instrument will change the feedback and sound. That's what Lefreque is as well.

The effect I found was really quite drastic, and it was on a 300 dollar Chinese baritone.

Does it mean I'd buy one? No. But it's the same thing as a counterweight, Calder tone halo, Sauer brace, the list goes on.

Adrian, I agree with you.

The word “placebo” has a lot of attached baggage. My point is it doesn’t matter whether the difference can be somehow measured by decibel-meter, oscilloscope, or any other measuring tool.(I don’t know of any neutral words that convey the same meaning. Too often, <<placebo>> is a stand-in for “mental disorder.” As if ignorance were any excuse to dismiss the unknown.)

If it makes a difference to the player, it makes a difference. Adding a bronze bearing under a valve cap, tightening or loosening the set screw on the water key, different paddles on the lever arms—it all makes a difference, especially when we don’t understand it or when we don’t believe it.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:50 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:34 am

No, I will fight back on that. Any weight you add to an instrument will change the feedback and sound. That's what Lefreque is as well.

The effect I found was really quite drastic, and it was on a 300 dollar Chinese baritone.

Does it mean I'd buy one? No. But it's the same thing as a counterweight, Calder tone halo, Sauer brace, the list goes on.

Wait. The pocket rocket just sits in your pocket. It doesn't touch the instrument you are playing.

Oh that one is fake. I speak only for LeFreque

Yeah, the Pocket Rocket, for anyone who hasn't seen it, is a short lived product that consisted of an expensive looking wood sandwich, made of various fancy hard woods, with holes drilled into it that you'd put harmonic pillars into .... And then put in your pocket.

They claimed it would improve the acoustic of the room and add resonance to your sound, regardless of the instrument.

LeFreque is real. Similar to changing a counterweight, bracing, or like the harmonic pillars from Edwards.

LeFreque? Really? Guy I play with uses one, afraid to ask if it helps. However, I KNOW that the MK Drawing/Sauer brace does not...

Lastbone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:51 pm LeFreque? Really? Guy I play with uses one, afraid to ask if it helps. However, I KNOW that the MK Drawing/Sauer brace does not...

and I know that it does- just got one a couple weeks ago. Do I like the change? Not really. But it sure does something.

"I KNOW that the MK Drawing/Sauer brace does not..."

I'm as skeptical as the next guy, but the Sauer Brace absolutely transformed a Conn 62H that I once owned but didn't do a thing on my King Duo Gravis or 8B. It made a really good horn into a really great horn, Go figure ------.

Lastbone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:51 pm LeFreque? Really? Guy I play with uses one, afraid to ask if it helps. However, I KNOW that the MK Drawing/Sauer brace does not...

If you tighten that Sauer brace enough it'll definitely change it. You weren't being liberal enough with the torque. Just keep turning it and be brave!

I would throw in the Dennis Wick Tone Booster for mouthpieces. Didn't change a thing for me.

Cryogenic treatments?

Erikon talks of Dennis Wick. That reminds me of the battery operated vibrating machine that you put your own mouthpiece in and massaged your embouchure before a concert. I never tried one and I dont think they sell them anymore but surely this was a waste of money wasnt it? Maybe they never sold them in the US?... Doug

Back in the Bad Old Days they sold something called a Sound Sleeve. It was a metal cylinder that fit on your mouthpiece shank and supposedly helped with "slotting". Being too cheap to pay good money for one I put a steel bearing end on my mouthpiece shank. Apparently made the low (and especially the trigger) register fuller, and didn't do anything to or for my upper register. OK.

Had a tragic accident with the instrument that meant a lot of downtime in the shop. Got a temporary horn to play that didn't fit my device. Guess what? Lower register was still full and high register was still the same! My old friend returns with a new bell and now I no longer needed the device. I had a few of these bearing ends (we discarded them during a PM on one of our machines) which I gave out to some friends. Some were discarded immediately and others are still in use (for all I know).

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:00 am Yeah, the Pocket Rocket, for anyone who hasn't seen it, is a short lived product that consisted of an expensive looking wood sandwich, made of various fancy hard woods, with holes drilled into it that you'd put harmonic pillars into .... And then put in your pocket.

For the curious:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071118180 ... ocket.html

They also made a clamp-on version called the Grip Tone:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071114110 ... _tone.html
I doubt if it did everything they said, but it would certainly have done something. You can't hang something like that on an instrument without it having some impact its acoustics.

I found it!...
https://johnpacker.co.uk/products/denis ... er-dwa9050
or
https://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2008/art817.asp

There must be a reason why no one sells it any more and why you cant find a mentiopn of it anywhere? I also note from finding these citations that Denis Wick didnt make them or invent them, just marketed them... Doug

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:58 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:00 am Yeah, the Pocket Rocket, for anyone who hasn't seen it, is a short lived product that consisted of an expensive looking wood sandwich, made of various fancy hard woods, with holes drilled into it that you'd put harmonic pillars into .... And then put in your pocket.

For the curious:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071118180 ... ocket.html

They also made a clamp-on version called the Grip Tone:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071114110 ... _tone.html
I doubt if it did everything they said, but it would certainly have done something. You can't hang something like that on an instrument without it having some impact its acoustics.

When I saw the Pocket Rocket show up in Steve Ferguson’s Horn Guys, I knew it was fake.

For a while, a FB ad popped up on my feed hocking a device that claimed to “age” an instrument rapidly. Did anyone else see that? I can’t find the ad now, of course…

Valve trombone?

Scale Dice.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:14 am Scale Dice.

greenbean wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:52 am Valve trombone?

Ah yes. Dumbo has his crow feather. If it works for you…good enough.

Saw this one just now.

https://kgumusic.com/products/trombone- ... y-kgumusic

The jHorn. But it's also one of the most hilarious things you can buy as a brass player, so maybe that means it's not useless?

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:11 pm The jHorn. But it's also one of the most hilarious things you can buy as a brass player, so maybe that means it's not useless?

A trombone buddy of mine got a Jhorn. He said it makes a great wall decoration.

I had a very brief experience with a jHorn. I thought it might be a travel option I wouldn’t have to worry about damaging. It was an interesting and short experiment I wouldn’t repeat

Most useless gadget? A calendar with lots of room just to schedule gigs…. Or maybe a phone line dedicated for my trombone services.

Cheers,
Andy

Someone educate a poor culturally denide Englishman - whats a jhorn?

A plastic undersized pocket baritone.

The jHorn:

https://www.nuvoinstrumental.com/products/jhorn/

I’ve never seen, heard, or played one. Too bad about the reviews. It’s a neat idea.

DougHulme wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:31 am Someone educate a poor culturally denide Englishman - whats a jhorn?

Another take on the jHorn from the inimitable Trent Hamilton:

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:31 am The LeFreque plates have to rank up there.

The US dealer was a NABBA last week.

I talked with him for a while...the LeFreque plates will cure problems you don't even know you have (according to him).

Screw-in leadpipes are bad...they make a poor connection to the rest of the horn. Mouthpieces don't make a solid connection with the leadpipe, because it's a friction fit, and so forth. He suggested that I needed a set of LeFreque plates from the mouthpiece to the upper cork barrel to cure those issues.

The cork barrel? That's going to inject acoustic energy into the air column? Exactly how?

Can you say placebo effect?

Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:25 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:31 am The LeFreque plates have to rank up there.

The US dealer was a NABBA last week.

I talked with him for a while...the LeFreque plates will cure problems you don't even know you have (according to him).

Screw-in leadpipes are bad...they make a poor connection to the rest of the horn. Mouthpieces don't make a solid connection with the leadpipe, because it's a friction fit, and so forth. He suggested that I needed a set of LeFreque plates from the mouthpiece to the upper cork barrel to cure those issues.

The cork barrel? That's going to inject acoustic energy into the air column? Exactly how?

Can you say placebo effect?

But... have you tried it?

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:14 am Scale Dice.

Actually, the idea behind scale dice isn't bad, but the execution is criminal (as in, Jesse James carried a gun). We all have scales and keys we like so this is a way to break things up and practice the scales you don't like so much.

But instead of spending $20 on a dodecahedron with notes/keys on it, use a pseudorandom number generator on your phone/iPad/computer to choose today's scale at random. Or go to your local game shop and buy a dodecahedral die.

1 = A
2 = Bb
3 = B/Cb
4 = C
5 = Db/C#
6 = D
7 = Eb
8 = E
9 = F
10 = Gb/F#
11 = G
12 = Ab

Or invent your own correspondence.

Or if you want your practice to reflect the key prevalence in your preferred genres, figure out what the key weightings are, and modify your program to reflect those weights.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:28 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:25 pm
Can you say placebo effect?

But... have you tried it?

Yes, I did. I also listened to a euph player A/B ing two sets of plates. One set from the mouthpiece shank to the gap adjuster on his Adams euph, and the other set from the bottom bow to the bell stem. The Mark II auditory test didn't hear any substantial difference, but it was a difficult room.

A counterweight on the tuning slide brace makes a lot more difference, but then, a counterweight is a lot more weight (and weight in a place my bass doesn't need it).

I've also seen the spectrograms A/B ing a piccolo with and without plates. I've done a fair amount of time series (Fourier) analysis and I've got a decent feel for sampling variation of spectrograms. The differences look to be on the order of sampling variation. Obviously I can't tell without having access to the underlying data, but I can say this pretty certainly: the Mark I eyeball test says, "No substantial difference."

Placebo effects are real--that's why we have to test drugs against placebos when no effective treatment exists for the condition.

The physical explanations LeFreque offers are nonsense. Cork barrels are not as well-connected to the sound column as the mouthpiece is. Soldering the leadpipe in place would make a much bigger difference than the LaFreque plates if the theory of increasing the efficiency of acoustic energy transfer made sense. It would be a hell of lot cheaper, too.

Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:01 pm
The physical explanations LeFreque offers are nonsense. Cork barrels are not as well-connected to the sound column as the mouthpiece is. Soldering the leadpipe in place would make a much bigger difference than the LaFreque plates if the theory of increasing the efficiency of acoustic energy transfer made sense. It would be a hell of lot cheaper, too.

I'm honestly not that interested in sound- the feedback, however, is massively different.

Cheaper? Nah they got the plastic starter pack