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Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:55 am
by Jim2195
I recently bought a used Conn 88H on eBay and it arrived last Friday. What I assumed were lighting issues in the listing photos turned out to be some discoloration on the bell of the trombone. It is rose brass but as you can see, there is an unsightly orange tinted splotch right in the middle. I don’t know if it’s the lacquer or the brass underneath. The orange stain did not spread to the side of the bell that faces downwards in the case. Does anyone know what could have caused this, and if there are any solutions? Spot lacquering? Some sort of chemical treatment to change the color back to its original state? I’m not a fan of how it looks at the moment
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:39 am
by brassmedic
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:51 am
by tbonesullivan
Hmm, is the bell still lacquered? It's possible that something was there that stained the lacquer. Do you know how old it is? It doesn't look like a Gen II horn based on the valve, so if it was lacquered using cellulose type lacquer, those can discolor over time, and / or absorb colors from other things.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:18 am
by Jim2195
Yes, it’s still got all of the lacquer left. I believe it was made sometime in the 70’s, so Abilene-era. The serial number is hard to read due to pitting but it starts with a “G” which puts it at around 1973-1979.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:49 am
by tbonesullivan
Jim2195 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:18 am
Yes, it’s still got all of the lacquer left. I believe it was made sometime in the 70’s, so Abilene-era. The serial number is hard to read due to pitting but it starts with a “G” which puts it at around 1973-1979.
Best bet might be some car wax, which can lift out/off discoloration. Other than that your only option would be to get the bell refinished, or to live with the yellow area.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:39 pm
by Jim2195
tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:49 am
Jim2195 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:18 am
Yes, it’s still got all of the lacquer left. I believe it was made sometime in the 70’s, so Abilene-era. The serial number is hard to read due to pitting but it starts with a “G” which puts it at around 1973-1979.
Best bet might be some car wax, which can lift out/off discoloration. Other than that your only option would be to get the bell refinished, or to live with the yellow area.
Is it safe to apply the car wax onto the lacquer finish? I’m interested in giving it a shot.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:50 pm
by tbonesullivan
Jim2195 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:39 pmIs it safe to apply the car wax onto the lacquer finish? I’m interested in giving it a shot.
Regular carnauba based wax should be fine. Never heard of it doing anything to lacquer, paint, etc.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:59 pm
by ithinknot
It's hard to tell from the photos, but there's a version of that kind of yellow/ever so slightly brown discoloration under the lacquer that IIRC tends to come from lacquering and drying under less than ideal humidity conditions (or, doubtless, other surface prep issues). You see it more often on relacquer jobs than factory work, but it's out there.
Don't worry about it. I really doubt wax is going to do anything for you, but it's not going to do any great harm either.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:10 pm
by hyperbolica
It could be discolored by high heat.
Personally, it's an Abilene horn in great condition, and the discoloration is something you don't really see unless you're looking for it. If you paid a lot for it, talk to the ebayer. If you didn't pay a lot for it, just play it. It's in great shape otherwise, from the looks of things.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:17 pm
by Jim2195
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:10 pm
It could be discolored by high heat.
Personally, it's an Abilene horn in great condition, and the discoloration is something you don't really see unless you're looking for it. If you paid a lot for it, talk to the ebayer. If you didn't pay a lot for it, just play it. It's in great shape otherwise, from the looks of things.
I paid $800 for it, which I think is a decent price. The seller said the horn sat in its case untouched for many years, so I’m assuming the discoloration must’ve happened a while ago. When it arrived, it was pretty dusty and the soft material from the case had gotten all over the inside of the instrument?? (no idea what happened there) It took me multiple baths to clean it all up. But all in all it plays pretty well! So I can’t complain.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:42 pm
by OneTon
All of my Conn hand slides had heat damage at the braces and a few had heat damage at the crook. I insisted that that the solder joints be separated, that the slides be properly aligned, and the solder re-flowed. I also told the technicians that I wanted a good functioning slide and I would accept and expect heat discoloration. None ever exhibited Conn wear. Your horn could have had the lacquer damaged by heat. The lacquer appears to be intact whether or not it was exposed to heat. If it is heat, it is just a change of color and not damage per se. It will not affect form, fit, or function. For $800, I think you got a really good horn. Enjoy it and forget the car wax.
Your horn looks better than my 79H. And I paid a lot more for it. You might consider putting it in an SKB flight case. It sounds like your case is long in the tooth. I never have had any lost love for Conn’s wedge case. I don’t like Bach’s newer cases either. I guess I am a grumpy old man.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:57 pm
by Posaunus
An Abilene 88H in good condition that plays well (with a better rotary valve than an Elkhart!) for only $800? You got a killer deal. Think of your (rather subtle, in the photographs) orange highlight as a character feature, akin to an aged-brass patina, and play your treasure with pleasure.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:08 pm
by bigbandbone
That kind of discoloration usually cones from excessive heat.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:29 pm
by Jim2195
OneTon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:42 pm
All of my Conn hand slides had heat damage at the braces and a few had heat damage at the crook. I insisted that that the solder joints be separated, that the slides be properly aligned, and the solder re-flowed. I also told the technicians that I wanted a good functioning slide and I would accept and expect heat discoloration. None ever exhibited Conn wear. Your horn could have had the lacquer damaged by heat. The lacquer appears to be intact whether or not it was exposed to heat. If it is heat, it is just a change of color and not damage per se. It will not affect form, fit, or function. For $800, I think you got a really good horn. Enjoy it and forget the car wax.
Your horn looks better than my 79H. And I paid a lot more for it. You might consider putting it in an SKB flight case. It sounds like your case is long in the tooth. I never have had any lost love for Conn’s wedge case. I don’t like Bach’s newer cases either. I guess I am a grumpy old man.
The lacquer appears to still be there, it just puzzles me how the heat damage only affected the middle of the bell rather than the whole thing. (Honestly I’d rather have an entirely orangey bell than the multi colored finish haha)
Yeah, I’ll have to replace the case. This case also has a broken latch. I’ve had to line the inside with tissue so the loose soft material doesn’t get all over the instrument. I also own a Conn french horn and its case has the same issue, maybe it’s just a Conn thing?
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:43 pm
by ithinknot
Hard to imagine why there'd be heat damage in that area, and only on one side of the bell, unless someone thought it would help during some serious trauma repair to the throat... depending on who repaired it, it's often pretty easy to tell just by feel if that area has had some out-of-round adventures.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:31 pm
by OneTon
Jim2195 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:29 pm
The lacquer appears to still be there, it just puzzles me how the heat damage only affected the middle of the bell rather than the whole thing. (Honestly I’d rather have an entirely orangey bell than the multi colored finish haha)
Yeah, I’ll have to replace the case. This case also has a broken latch. I’ve had to line the bottom with tissue so the soft material from doesn’t get all over the instrument. I also own a Conn french horn and its case has the same issue, maybe it’s just a Conn thing?
A technician may have attempted to anneal the brass by heating it up to relieve work hardening due to taking out a sharp edged dent. The better they are, the harder the defect is to detect, outside of discoloration. If you can, try to think of it as part of this horn's personal character and mysterious past.
Conn cases after ~1968 are not their strongest suit. Sometimes the case just does it job and we have to replace it.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:44 pm
by CharlieB
If a horn is not impeccably clean when the lacquer is sprayed, contaminants trapped under the lacquer will, over time, react with the brass and discolor its surface. I suspect that is what has happened here.
The best remedy is to have a tech strip, buff, and re-lacquer the outside of the entire bell between the rim and the first bell brace. That's not as expensive as it sounds, and there are some very good tech's near you.
Re: Conn 88H bell discoloration
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:19 pm
by OneTon
Yes. But if you leave it alone you don’t buff it and the bell does not get thinned. As it is, it does not affect form, fit, or function. It will hardly be visible to any audience. Doing nothing is usually the hardest option to take but it makes the most sense.
