Yamaha YBL 622 and 822 notes

[modelerdc]

I'm lucky to have both a 622 and a 822 Yamaha dependent Yeo model bass trombones here at the moment. Comparing the two the 822 does seem improved. The sound is a little darker, and the double triggers notes respond with less effort. Maybe that's just the samples I have, others can say if they've had the same experience. The 822 case is much nicer. These horns do tend to collect water in the valve section, the small slide on the D valve of the 822 lets you empty it without twirling the horn like the 622.

I do like the way the horns balance when held. Most tenor trombones balance with the slide angling slightly down, which is a good thing as most players, myself included, naturally play with the mouthpiece angled down somewhat from horizontal. However many double trigger open wrap bass trombones have so much weight on the back end that they balance more horizontally. For me this means a constant battle to keep the slide from rising and causing embouchure problems. The Yamahas have a compact design that keeps more of the weight toward the middle, and the result is that the balance is similar to many tenor trombones, with the horn balancing with the slide slightly down from horizontal. This feature alone makes these horns easier and more comfortable for me to play.

Nitpicks. It's been discussed before how the mouthpiece goes further into the lead pipe than standard. While this doesn't make the horn play better or worse, it is an additional adjustment the player has to make. I'm sure many players are turned off by this feature alone. At this price point it would be nice if the instrument came with a screw in lead pipe. Even if provided with just one lead pipe, it would allow easy adjustment of the mouthpiece projection distance as well as some choice in lead pipes.
The second valve is removable but their is no place in the case to store the removed valve. For example if you had a series of gigs not needing the second valve, you would have to travel with the second valve attached, remove it at the gig, and replace it before putting the horn back in the case before leaving. For a series of gigs, this could be more trouble than it is worth. I'm sure that these horns get played as a single trigger a lot less often for that reason. The 2nd trigger spring on the 622 has bent with age to where it will no longer reach the place to hold it during removal. I will have to get a replacement to remove the valve, fortunately they aren't very much.

Other thoughts. It's been stated that these horns don't work well on smaller mouthpieces. I'm a 1 1/4 guy, and I can tell you that they play very well on middle sized mouthpieces. I've tried Elliott 112K, L, Lasky 85MD, Schilke 59, and Shires 1/4 MD. I do find that an open throat and back bore, such as the Shires or Elliot L10 shank help the double trigger notes match the sound and volume of the rest of the instrument. I can't evaluate how the horn plays on smaller mouthpieces such as a 1 1/2G because I don't play them.

Are these horns so symphonic that you can't play Jazz? Well I saw the Big Phat band live once, and their bass trombonist at the time was playing a 622. Just shows that your approach and probably mouthpiece selection make a difference. Given that the 622 has a little lighter sound it might be the more versatile of the two.

I have a Yamaha 421G bass that has an even more brilliant sound than the 622, probably make a good commercial bass if the Yeo models are too dark. Has anyone noticed that the 421 wrap is the same as the F valve on the Yeo's? The removable valve will drop into the 421G wrap. But I'll need to add a trigger saddle, the place for the small retaining screw, and the back F tuning slide for it to work. Has anyone done this? Thanks

[AtomicClock]

The second valve is removable but their is no place in the case to store the removed valve. For example if you had a series of gigs not needing the second valve, you would have to travel with the second valve attached, remove it at the gig, and replace it before putting the horn back in the case before leaving. For a series of gigs, this could be more trouble than it is worth. I'm sure that these horns get played as a single trigger a lot less often for that reason.

The 622 case is made of styrofoam, covered in fabric. There is an existing slot that looks like it holds a D slide for a different horn. I expanded that slot with a knife (mostly in the lid of the case) and covered it with some craft store felt. Only then did I realize that the horn is too nose heavy, so I always have the second valve installed. Sigh.

622 case.jpg

I find that the F lever is too short. In the picture, you can also see the extension I added, made from a Bic pen. Someday perhaps I'll find something more elegant.

[modelerdc]

Very interesting. The 822 comes with an adjustable pad on the F lever. I'll probably have a wooden one made for the 622. As far as being nose heavy, I use a standard Yamaha weight on the 421G. But for the 622 or 822 one of the three pieces weights that you can add without tools would be ideal.

[AtomicClock]

Does the adjustable pad make the lever longer, or just more comfortable? I suspect the former.

[harrisonreed]

I would disagree about the mp insertion depth not affecting the playing, having played both styles.

I can see why some would like the 822. I realize that there are wildly different approaches to bass.

[Kbiggs]

Notes… hmm, so the 622 is a cabernet, and the 822 a merlot?

[modelerdc]

Harrison Reed wrote, "I would disagree about the mp insertion depth not affecting the playing..."
I think we are talking about two different things here. Making a mpc insert farther into a given lead pipe, so that the mouthpiece is closer to the lead pipe venturi, does affect how the instrument plays. This is usually done by turning down the diameter of the mpc shank or by inserting the tool that forms the end of the lead pipe further into it, creating a larger opening. I believe this is what you meant.

On the other hand, any given mpc lead pipe combination can be made to go further into the slide, or stick out further. On an instrument with screw in lead pipes, just slide one in but don't screw it down, and it will stick out a little further than when screwed all the way in. Adjusting how far the lead pipe projects from the instrument without altering the way the mouthpiece fits the lead pipe is what I am talking about.

[hornbuilder]

The amount of the mouthpiece shank covered by the leadpipe is irrelevant. The distance between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the minor diameter of the leadpipe is important. The 2 are not interdependent on each other. Just because one leadpipe "accepts" more of the mouthpiece shank does not mean the size of the Venturi is placed incorrectly. It means the receiver taper was (potentially) trimmed incorrectly.

[harrisonreed]

You guys keep saying that, but I'm not convinced that the 822 leadpipe has the venturi in the same place as a "normal" leadpipe. I believe that the 822 leadpipe is designed in such a way that it is as if you turned down the shank of your mouthpiece. It plays closer to "normal" if you build up the shank with tape so it only goes in 1" on the 822.

Have you guys tried it or measured the pipe? I haven't measured it but I have "fixed" the issue on an 822 and I have designed alto mouthpieces that purposely go into the the alto further than normal to open it up. The 822 plays like that. Of course it could be any number of other things with the 822 and the leadpipe might just superficially "eat" the mouthpiece. But at the end of the day, unlike and other bass I've played, taping the shank makes it feel closer in response to what you would expect. The only thing I can think of (assuming a constant 1.49⁰ taper rate) is that the pipe is as open as possible. Maybe the venturi is just immediately after the end of where the shank ends, it specifically eats the shank as a feature, which allows you to mess with the distance if you wanted to.

[tbonesullivan]

Very interesting. The 822 comes with an adjustable pad on the F lever. I'll probably have a wooden one made for the 622. As far as being nose heavy, I use a standard Yamaha weight on the 421G. But for the 622 or 822 one of the three pieces weights that you can add without tools would be ideal.

If you are in the USA, that pad thing fits on pretty much all of the trombones made since 1990. I put one on my 612, and I'm pretty sure that it will fit right on to the 622.

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/p ... s_id=27267

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/p ... s_id=22663

[modelerdc]

Thanks for the links, that looks like the one that came with my 822, I'll have to get one for the 622.

[AtomicClock]

The other pad thing, on the D valve, falls off if you ignore it for a second. I have to tighten it mindlessly every several minutes. I don't know if they all do that. Fortunately it hasn't detached yet while in the case. Or maybe I just don't know how to use a set screw?

[Burgerbob]

Just wail on that screw with some non marking pliers. I have to on mine.

[musicofnote]

I play a 822g and had this mouthpiece problem. Thanks to suggestions here of taping the shaft, that solved a lot of response and tone problems. With a taped shaft, a Greg Black 1.5 works fine, although it sound a little too aggressive to me.

I played a Wedge 108G with the "normal" .280" throat and on a whim, ordered one with the .300" throat. That helped alot with slotting in the lowest, but also highest registers and made is sound-feel almost like my Greg Black 1.5G. Then I switched to a Wedge 110G with the "normal" .280" throat and while the sound was darker, broader, the top register was thin and backed up, compared to the 108G .300". Sooo, I bought the 110G .300" and that helped, but I felt the lowest notes were a bit flabby, like the slots were too wide. But I liked the sound much more than the 108G/Greg Black.

So Dr. Dave made me a 109G with .300" throat and hybrid rim/cup. Bingo. Sound quality is between the open 110G and 108G, tending towards the 110G. Slots are great, forcing me to aim better and not let myself get sloppy.

Oh, and I told him about the receiver swallowing the mouthpieces and he made the 110G and the 109G with what he calls his "deep receiver" and now the two don't go in as far without tape, but as far as the pervious models with tape.

Why am I concerning myself here with this? Because of the supposition about 822s not liking small mouthpieces. According to Dr. Dave's measurements the cup diameters/throats:
110G – ID 1.10 inches (27.94 mm), Throat .280 inches (7.11 mm) or .300 (7.62 mm)
109G - ID 1.09 inches (27.68 mm), Throat .300 (7.62 mm)
108G – ID 1.08 inches (27.43 mm), Throat .280 inches (7.11 mm) or .300 (7.62 mm)
and then...
Greg Black 1.5G – 27.25 mm, Throat .281" (7.14mm)
Bach - 1.25GM 27.50mm
Bach – 1.5G 27.00mm, throat 7.01mm

I found the Bach 1.25GM just too big for my chops, the GB 1.5G larger than the Bach 1.5G but bth worked relatively ok, just not right for me. So now, just for curiosity sake, I'm waiting to take another crack at a Greg Black 1 7/16 (27.59/.295") and a Greg Black 1 3/8 (27.90/.302") and see how this unholy triangle of chops-mouthpiece-822g works.

[AtomicClock]

Just wail on that screw with some non marking pliers. I have to on mine.

If that's the answer, I'd rather replace it with a screw that takes a screwdriver or Allen wrench. Anyone know the thread info, or how to measure it? I think Home Depot may have a display with a variety of tapped holes...

[ithinknot]

If that's the answer, I'd rather replace it with a screw that takes a screwdriver or Allen wrench. Anyone know the thread info, or how to measure it? I think Home Depot may have a display with a variety of tapped holes...

Mic/calipers for OD - you don't need ferocious precision, so cheap stuff will be just fine
Thread gauge for pitch - a $5 generic one will cover the usual ranges in both sensible (likely for Yamaha) and freedom units

Once you have both, you'll be surprised how often you use them... or not, if you hate fun and adventure

(In practice, knowing the diameter alone may suffice for metric... if it's, say, 3mm, it's highly likely that it's M3 x 0.5 because that's the standard pitch for that diameter.)

[BGuttman]

Moderator's note: I removed a digression about calipers, slide rules, and engineering to a new topic.

[joshwirt]

What about 622 vs 620? I know totally different but anyone with experience able to weigh in? I’m looking into both as an option as a double (I’m primarily a tuba player who used to play a 1052FDR)