TromboneChat

Has anyone had any experiences playing around with how tight their water key screw is? It seems like a minute detail, but I think I feel a difference between the screw being tight, loosened 45/90/180 degrees.

This could be inconsistency in my playing, placebo, or confirmation bias, but I heard of a story where Christan Griego adjusts a student's water key when the student was asking for a warmer sound, and that worked, shockingly.

Sounds like that story telling mate has had a bit too much VB.

Ben Griffin showed me that one time. It's bizarre how much difference it can make.

On some horns the end crook vibrates noticeably - you can't really check that yoursrlf, but try touching it while somebody else plays. On other horns it doesn't seem to vibrate at all. I imagine that any change of weight. tension, or balance could affect things. And that includes the argument about whether the rubber bumper affects anything.

Yes. It matters. Minute details matter.

I like to loosen my waterkey screw a half turn before I play Bolero.

If it does make a difference... I have to imagine that it is because the waterkey is not fit properly to the saddle, and that tightening the screw fully pulls the posts together and puts tension on the crook.

Most likely placebo, imho.

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:41 pm If it does make a difference... I have to imagine that it is because the waterkey is not fit properly to the saddle, and that tightening the screw fully pulls the posts together and puts tension on the crook.

Yup, that would be why. (Of course, this only applies to those designs where tightening can pull the posts together... if you're just bottoming out the threads against a shoulder on the rod, then no.)

And, having seen various horns... wouldn't you say that the waterkey not being fit properly is at least as likely as placebo?

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:59 pm And, having seen various horns... wouldn't you say that the waterkey not being fit properly is at least as likely as placebo?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a modern factory-built instrument with a well-fit waterkey.

When Ben showed that to me, he didn't tell me what he was doing, just had me play the horn twice... there was a very noticeable difference in the feel. I wouldn't have believed it either.

I love that Placebo box. When I was at GSK I suggested in a research meeting of my R&D division that perhaps we should think about creating a Placebo product because we knew from numerous studies that it was often at least as good as brand name products being tested, and sometimes better. And given all the literature on it, surely we wouldn't have to do more testing to get it approved. My (somewhat quirky and with a great sense of humor) department felt it was an interesting idea, but thought upper levels and some other departments would lack enthusiasm.

Clearly, however, the product you show is the generic version of Placebo. Some studies indicate it might have issues with efficacy and side effects. But the broad scope of that data is difficult to analyze meaningfully

Perhaps a [Brand Name] placebo would sell better?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:06 am Perhaps a [Brand Name] placebo would sell better?

There are indications in the market that this is true.

And now I'll ramble on a bit about that ...

Also, while it is commonly claimed that generic versions of drugs are "just as effective" as brand names, this is not necessarily true. The criteria of bioequivalence imposed by the regulatory agencies for drugs that have gone off-patent doesn't really enforce equivalent efficacy. I faced this problem myself once some years ago when I was taking a diabetes medication for a while and using a generic version of it (I won't go into the reason for that; it was complicated). That all worked fine for some time, but then after one refill I discovered that it didn't seem to be working as well (ironically, I was in Ireland at the time after a business trip to London with my research group). I delved into various epidemiology reports on comparative efficacy and discovered that of the 10 or so generic clones of the drug, close to half had poorer efficacy, close to half had equivalent efficacy, and one of them had better efficacy (!) than the branded version.

I currently use a couple of common drugs for hypertension, and use the generics (even though my insurance would pay for branded versions) because I could see from all the reports that these were reliable. But I also take levothyroxine for a hypothyroid condition and am very careful to take the branded Synthroid version since generic levothyroxine efficacy is all over the map -- and you can't get an insurance company to commit to using Synthroid as their "generic" version. But it's so cheap that I just pay out of pocket for it instead of trying to make the case to enforce a "dispense as written script" for that.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:40 pm When Ben showed that to me, he didn't tell me what he was doing, just had me play the horn twice... there was a very noticeable difference in the feel. I wouldn't have believed it either.

Crazy!.... taking the rubber stopper off and a few screw turns to loosen the water key a little bit on the '57 King2BSS does make a difference in feel with this old thing. Wow. Even better horn now.

You learn something new every day.

Ben Griffin showed me the water key screw and the rubber bumper things at a show as well. When he did it for both, he took the horn away and made the change without me seeing what he did. I did notice a difference on both.

Over the years, I have noticed another thing about water keys that makes a significant difference in the acoustics of a trombone. On the majority of trombones, probably 60-70%, the two sides of the water key saddle do not line up. In other words, if you put the water key hinge screw in the saddle without the water key in it, you will likely need to force the screw in one direction or another to get it to engage in the threads on the other side. If a tech takes the time to manipulate those posts so that the screw automatically centers, it seems to help the horn vibrate more freely.

Another note on this topic: If building a new slide or replacing a water key saddle, a perfectly aligned water key screw before soldering does not ensure a perfectly aligned water key screw after soldering. The heat can easily twist or contort the saddle. Thus, the saddle might need realignment after soldering.

Yes, I tried it. Yes, I felt a difference. Yes, the placebo effect is real.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:22 am Yes, the placebo effect is real.

Is that an oxymoron?

Yes and no.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:54 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:22 am Yes, the placebo effect is real.

Is that an oxymoron?

No it's a real thing. Look up the mosquito bite pump. They did a Radio Lab about it. It worked until scientists proved it did nothing. Then it stopped working for the poor reporter they proved that to. She was fuming.

Humans dominate the Earth because of the power of our imaginations, not because we are the biggest, strongest, fastest, fiercest...

That and opposable thumbs.

Hard to play trombone without opposable thumbs

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 1:28 pm Hard to play trombone without opposable thumbs

Umm ... there's always duct tape.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 5:43 pm placebo-box-1-scaled.jpg

Brad,

Being that you are a very accomplished tech, I would think that you would jump on the “water key screw train” and run with it! After all, Bob Reeves made a lot of $ with his “valve alignment optimization” service (nothing more than measuring and installing the proper size felts on a piston valve).

You could call it a “water key sonic alignment.” Simply loosen the water key 1/2 a turn and charge an extra fee. If you don’t do it, I’m sure there are many techs who will!

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:19 pm
Bob Reeves made a lot of $ with his “valve alignment optimization” service

(nothing more than measuring and installing the proper size felts on a piston valve).

And you know this as a fact?
I have a considerably different understanding of that service.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:19 pm After all, Bob Reeves made a lot of $ with his “valve alignment optimization” service (nothing more than measuring and installing the proper size felts on a piston valve).

I can't see an analogy of what Reeves does to a placebo. In fact, quite the opposite. He's very careful to describe precisely the causes and effects of the misalignment of valves. (And we know of these independent of his own investigations.) This turns out to be a matter of measurement and physics. He then describes precisely what he does to address the problems of misalignment -- in line with the aforementioned physics -- in terms of precision of measurement and materials.

I've done valve alignments on my own instruments in just that way, and being very careful about the measurements (using a tool I made based on a description in the Allied catalog) and choosing good materials (though I don't use quite the materials Reeves says he does). Do I hear and feel a difference? Maybe, maybe not -- but I do know that my valves are aligned and the instrument plays well. And certainly I've had cases where a valve got out of alignment (with resulting consequences), I fixed it in this way, and poor tone or pitch was corrected. (Another example of this was replacing the worn valve guides in my 1924 tuba.)

This isn't to say that there aren't people who exhibit a "placebo effect" when maintenance is done on their valves, but that's a different (psychological) issue.

All I am saying is that the “optimal valve alignment” service is much simpler than it is advertised. In my training, I was shown that there were 3 levels of felt washer replacement on piston valves:

1. The emergency “quick fix”: Choose a washer that looks similar to the current ones being used. This is the method used when you must go on the stage in five minutes and you have a small selection of washers in your tool kit.

2. Measure (using the tool already mentioned) and replace with appropriately sized felts: This is the most common method. Usually, a tech will allow for the felts to compress about .5 mm over time. Thus, a very accurate fit will “settle in” after the horn is played for a while.

3. The “optimal alignment”: Exactly the same #2 but the washers are a non-compressing material (cost is a bit higher) and the fit is within .1 mm. I have done this to my euphoniums and primary trumpet. It definitely makes a difference acoustically, but the valves are a bit noisier (due to the stiffer “non-compressing” washers).

The cost difference between service #2 and #3 is actually only about $12-15 for a set of valves, mostly in parts. Yes, there is just a little more time involved to get the correct combination of those precision felts, but not much. Yet, some shops charge $125 and much higher for this service.

My point is….. Shops have been grossly overcharging for the piston “optimal alignment “ for years. To the techs out there, sorry to let the cat out of the bag.

Getting back to this thread…….this idea of loosening the water key a little bit to improve the acoustics of a trombone could be a similar type of customization. Techs could easily claim to do a “sonic optimization” of the water key and all they are doing is loosening the screw a half turn.

In repair, it’s all a matter of ethics. If a trumpet player brings me a horn and asks for those precision valve washers, I will do the “optimal alignment” and simply charge them for the slightly more expensive parts. I can’t, in good conscience, charge them $125-150 for a routine service that has slightly more expensive parts.

Likewise, I always precisely align every trombone water key and always turn the hinge screw back 1/4 to 1/2 a turn to release the pressure. It’s just the right thing to do. Besides, that’s exactly what the woodwind techs do on every hinge screw.

The guy I go to charges for time and parts. He gives an estimate based on that, with the understanding that that might change if more time is required, or additional parts. He's very competent, so far as I've ever been able to tell, and has had both formal training and lengthy experience (including, in his youth, some years in a nationally recognized shop). He's outrageously honest. I've always been shocked at how little the cost to me for any repair or modification has been (in particular, all the effort involved in pulling the leadpipe from my cheap Chinese bass trombone -- and I was there to see all of that and help with it a bit: "Here. You hold this now ..." ). I don't know how he makes a living at what he does, but he's been doing it for decades and has recently withstood threats from some more "modern" regional operations who came -- and then went because they couldn't sustain their business models in the local environment.

I've also dealt with other repair/builder techs more widely known nationally -- primarily for tuba issues. And instead of encouraging me to send my instrument half-way across the country to them, they instead carefully described to me the appropriate techniques and and materials involved in what I wanted to do -- for example, in replacing the very worn and clackety valve guides on my 100 year old tuba with ones made from plastic screws (re-drilling and tapping the holes in the pistons, and trimming the screw heads -- including the drill and tap sizes needed). And venting piston valves. No charge for the advice and guidance.

So I understand your perspective.

It absolutely makes a change. Don’t chase your tail trying to mess with it.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 1:28 pm Hard to play trombone without opposable thumbs

Leonhard says, "Nope!"

Just in case you’re wondering about the placebo effect: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814126/

It’s a literature review of the medical community’s understanding of the placebo effect. It’s one way to compare the effectiveness of medications and other treatments. It can be used in double-blind studies, which are the highest ethical standard used to compare effectiveness of medications.

We might all be a little delusional, but when it’s something harmless like a water key screw, I’m content to allow my delusions to shoulder some of the burden!

My understanding of "valve alignment" as applied to piston valves is that it should probably include a check of rotational position, and correction if needed. Plastic guides wear over time, and even brass guides might need adjustment to put the spring silo in position to locate the valve ports to best advantage radially.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:15 pm Plastic guides wear over time, and even brass guides might need adjustment to put the spring silo in position to locate the valve ports to best advantage radially.,

Correct. My 100 year old Buescher tuba came to me with the original guides intact but very worn. They clattered quite loudly and permitted an obvious side/side rotation of the piston in the casing. I replaced them with plastic guides made from "cheese head" screws -- under the remote tutelage of Dan Schultz (AKA the Tuba Tinker).

"Village Tinker" worked on a rotary trumpet for me years ago. It was an Eb alto relic that he cut down to F for me as an experiment. I was interested in seeing what a section in a Mahler symphony would sound like covered by instruments in C, C, Bb, and F. It works, kind of, sort of. Mahler's writing doesn't strictly stick to 1,2,3,4 voicing, so more often than was comfortable the Bb and/or F would be playing above some of the others.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:15 pm My understanding of "valve alignment" as applied to piston valves is that it should probably include a check of rotational position, and correction if needed. Plastic guides wear over time, and even brass guides might need adjustment to put the spring silo in position to locate the valve ports to best advantage radially.

How would you "adjust" a brass valve guide to change the rotational position of the valve? That doesn’t seem possible to me.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:34 pm How would you "adjust" a brass valve guide to change the rotational position of the valve? That doesn’t seem possible to me.

So I have to ask -- have you ever replaced a brass valve guide? This isn't being snarky. But I don't want my answer to sound snarky.

I have sloppy brass valve guides (one of which is hanging by a thread). What's involved? You can talk down to me.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:58 pm I have sloppy brass valve guides (one of which is hanging by a thread). What's involved? You can talk down to me.

It's not talking down, it's just talking carefully and being careful about the process. The old brass valve guides are screwed into the piston. You can remove them by carefully grabbing the head with pliers and simply unscrewing them. You might want to use some PB Blaster or Kroil or whatever on the guide first just to help with not snapping the screw off in the hole (although you'll probably be drilling it out anyway). Then you need to find replacements for them. The first thing you have to decide is what material you want to use.

You can replace them with brass if you want. Ferree's sells guides and also a "fitting tool" that is inexpensive and worth having for holding a guide while you file it to fit your particular guide channel. Allied sells guides as well. Dawkes may too. You may need to enlarge the hole and (re)tap it to fit the guide thread.

I used 3Mx5mm cheese head nylon screws. I still have about 95 of them left. To drill out and retap the usual holes you need a M3 x 0.5 mm tap and bit. I don't remember where I got mine -- but probably either Votaw or McMaster-Carr. I think it came as a set. You might be able to get it from Lowes or an auto store nowadays. Of course you need a handle to put the tap in (but who doesn't have a few of those, eh?).

You might want to practice drilling and tapping if you haven't done that before.

So once you drill out and re-tap the hole, then you just screw in the nylon screw and ... oh, yeah -- you have to fit it to the guide channel. Before you do this, examine the guide channel (by sight and feel) and remove any burrs or sharp edges (CAREFULLY, with fine emory paper). You MAY want to trim the channel very carefull (I suggest a fine diamond Swiss file) if it's ragged. Do NOT be filing the cylinder wall itself!! Then measure the width of the channel and carve the guide to that width -- being sure it's centered in the channel. Use your little Ferree's guide-holding too to hold the guide while you cut it to the right dimensions using a heated (or unheated -- your choice) razor blade. Do this about 10 times until you get it right. There's a learning curve here, and trial and error is part of that. We ain't all professionally trained and experienced brass repair techs.

You ain't done yet. The new guide will be too high to fit when you try to insert the piston. So you have to carve down the top -- just enough, of course. There -- you're done. About the time you do you're third valve, you'll have become reasonably good at it. Note that -- inter alia -- this also implicitly points to how you can "rotate" the piston by trimming the guide: the original guide (whether Ferree's, Allied, ... or your cheesy cheese head screw) is oversize. So if you trim it a little light on one side and a little heavy on the other it will position the piston with that change in rotation. Easy cheesy.

My 100 year old tuba valves came out great -- aligned and silent. This ain't rocket science, but I wouldn't have done it on an expensive or valuable instrument as a first-time experiment. I would have bought some destroyed junker from Goodwill.com and practiced on it.

I'm kinda tired of typing all this, and I swear I've done it before. Here are some links to look at as well:

This one contains a lot of what I just said:
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64880

This one is a bit different and contains some remarks by Dan Schultz:
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66623

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:03 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:34 pm How would you "adjust" a brass valve guide to change the rotational position of the valve? That doesn’t seem possible to me.

So I have to ask -- have you ever replaced a brass valve guide? This isn't being snarky. But I don't want my answer to sound snarky.

I didn't ask you, and I'm not interested in your answer.

Bob Reeves used to do rotational alignments (along with vertical alignments); eventually, he determined that, in most cases, doing both didn't produce significantly better results than doing just a vertical alignment.

Some years ago we did some extensive empirical testing by aligning some horns from different manufacturers both vertically and rotationally. We set each horn up with different sets of valve guides so that they could be played with just the vertical alignment correct as well as with both vertical and rotational alignment correct. We had players try them both ways and found that correcting the rotational alignment did not have a perceptible impact in improving the playability of the horn.

Here's the whole write-up:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010826184 ... /index.htm

Eventually (sometime around 2007), the website was redesigned and the new version didn't mention rotational alignment at all.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 7:19 pm I didn't ask you, and I'm not interested in your answer.

That's the answer that I expected. Nonetheless, I think at this point you should understand the answer.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:11 pm Bob Reeves used to do rotational alignments (along with vertical alignments); eventually, he determined that, in most cases, doing both didn't produce significantly better results than doing just a vertical alignment.

That's not surprising. I'd expect it to matter only in the case of extreme wear -- resulting in the chewing up of the channel. That situation is quite difficult to repair. Independent of that, you need to take care not to misalign the piston with your shaping of the new guide.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:37 pmThat's not surprising. I'd expect it to matter only in the case of extreme wear -- resulting in the chewing up of the channel. That situation is quite difficult to repair. Independent of that, you need to take care not to misalign the piston with your shaping of the new guide.

Given the nature of Bob Reeves' business, he probably didn't see all that many instruments where the guides were extremely worn.

How would you "adjust" a brass valve guide to change the rotational position of the valve? That doesn’t seem possible to me.

Wow. There's been a bit of discussion here. The valve guide I was referencing is the sort that supports an enclosed spring. The tabs that drop into slots at the bottom of the ballasters can be modified with a bit of filing and silver soldering to shorten one side and lengthen the other slightly, pushing the spring housing's keyway one direction or the other. The parts end up being specific to the individual valves if alterations are made.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:54 pm

How would you "adjust" a brass valve guide to change the rotational position of the valve? That doesn’t seem possible to me.

Wow. There's been a bit of discussion here. The valve guide I was referencing is the sort that supports an enclosed spring. The tabs that drop into slots at the bottom of the ballasters can be modified with a bit of filing and silver soldering to shorten one side and lengthen the other slightly, pushing the spring housing's keyway one direction or the other. The parts end up being specific to the individual valves if alterations are made.

Yeah, well there are certain "discussions" here from certain people that I usually ignore, because they aren't really professional repairmen.

I'm attaching a diagram. The "baluster" that you're referring to, I assume, it the spring cage between part 1, the piston, and part 2, the valve guide. So I'm guessing that the "tabs" are the valve guide (part 2)? You're saying you file part of one side of the little arms that come off both sides and build up the other side with silver solder? That's interesting. Never heard of that, and I've been in the business a long time. I wasn't understanding the word "adjust" in that context. Thanks for clearing that up.

The diagram helps immensely. "Balusters" to me has always referred to the top half of the valve outer cylinders. Bach at one time describe their construction as having nickel silver valve balusters. I think they are reviving those, after using one-piece brass cylinders for years. The adjusting I was describing affects the ends of the "T"s on part #2. I had never seen the "rotation didn't matter" doc cited by JohnL until now. Interesting thread, hijacking, digressions, and all.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:21 am The diagram helps immensely. "Balusters" to me has always referred to the top half of the valve outer cylinders. Bach at one time describe their construction as having nickel silver valve balusters. I think they are reviving those, after using one-piece brass cylinders for years. The adjusting I was describing affects the ends of the "T"s on part #2. I had never seen the "rotation didn't matter" doc cited by JohnL until now. Interesting thread, hijacking, digressions, and all.

Yes, very interesting. Thanks for explaining that to me. Makes a lot of sense now. I might ask the guys at Reeves for their take on it.

This just floated to the top on TrumpetHerald. It cites a Reeves alignment patent, as well as a Fred Powell / Cliff Blackburn patent for rotational valve alignment. The Don Novy patent describes intentional misalignment to "improve" (?) the playing characteristics of an instrument. The idea is new to me.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... p?t=164060