Conn Recent Build Quality

[BigBlueTrombone]

Hello all! I am writing because about two years ago now I purchased a brand new 88HTO and I have been noticing a lot of issues with the build quality. Ever since I got through the "honeymoon" phase,, I noticed many manufacturing defects. A lot of these were mostly cosmetic, but also things like the nickel plating on the stockings being off and burrs being inside the valve freezing it in place.

The finish is another level of disappointing though. I would consider the horn very beautiful objectively speaking, but out of the box, it had a bunch of blemishes on the finish. The biggest offender would be that the bell's rose dip didn't go completely around the bell, there is a 0.5cm blank section on the bottom of the bell with no coloration or finish. Also, every time it is cleaned it comes back with a little more of the clear coat missing, the issue just hit the hand slide.

I know that the finish always wears after time, but I feel like all of these issues appeared within what was realistically the first year of ownership, which is abysmal. The shop I bought it from screwed me over immediately and blames all of its issues on my use, but I'm a college music student so I treat the thing like it's a rolls-royce and I need it forever.

Just looking for thoughts/other people's experiences with recent Con-Selmer horns.

Thanks

***Edit***

There was confusion around my statement about the rose dip. I have attached the best picture I can of the situation, but as you can see the bell has an uneven strip of yellow brass running the length of the bell. It looked to me like the rose coloration came from some sort of lacquer bath that gives the bell that color due to the unevenness of the line. I had assumed that the section of yellow brass was just a portion of the bell that wasn’t lacquered properly. That’s where I misunderstood, although I’d still like to know what the issue is. Additionally I attached pictures of blemished naturally on it from the factory.

In response to cleaning, I bathe it every month or so, which doesn’t cause issues with the clear coat finish, but when I have sent it for a professional cleaning some of this finish peels off. It has been both chemically and ultrasonically cleaned and both create the issue.

Additional insight would be appreciated.

[Finetales]

It's been discussed a lot here as of late. This recent thread goes into Conn-Selmer's QC quite a bit: viewtopic.php?t=33825

Suffice it to say: it's bad.

[hornbuilder]

What is a "Rose dip"?!?!?

[Posaunus]

The biggest offender would be that the bell's rose dip didn't go completely around the bell ...

The entire 88H bell is made of (what Conn calls) "rose brass." There is no "rose dip" to add that color.
Not clear what you are seeing.

[harrisonreed]

Rose dip:

[WGWTR180]

A picture of the rose dipped bell will be helpful.

[chromebone]

Back in the early UMI days, Conns were lacquered with the same gold tinted lacquer as Kings were during that era, but even then, the bell was rose brass(unless it was yellow brass model, of course). But they haven’t used that lacquer in many years.
You must be seeing the brass tarnishing in the spots where the lacquer has come off

[harrisonreed]

Conn's also get acid bleed sometimes too, right?

[tbonesullivan]

Hello all! I am writing because about two years ago now I purchased a brand new 88HTO and I have been noticing a lot of issues with the build quality. Ever since I got through the "honeymoon" phase,, I noticed many manufacturing defects. A lot of these were mostly cosmetic, but also things like the nickel plating on the stockings being off and burrs being inside the valve freezing it in place.

The finish is another level of disappointing though. I would consider the horn very beautiful objectively speaking, but out of the box, it had a bunch of blemishes on the finish. The biggest offender would be that the bell's rose dip didn't go completely around the bell, there is a 0.5cm blank section on the bottom of the bell with no coloration or finish. Also, every time it is cleaned it comes back with a little more of the clear coat missing, the issue just hit the hand slide.

Well that's definitely not the best experience. However some of what you are saying doesn't quite make sense. You said that the "nickel plating" on the stocking is off? What exactly are you referring to? If you are talking about the oversleeves on the outerside, those are solid nickel silver, and not nickel plated, so I don't see how any plating could be coming off. If you are referring to the inner slides, which have "stockings" at the end, the entire inner slide is chrome plated, and that should not be wearing off for decades.

As others have said about the bell, what do you mean by "rose dip" on the bell? While there may be some tint in the lacquer at times, and there is also the process of "color buffing" which does add a bit of "depth" to the brass using rouge compound. Do you have a picture of this area, because I"m fairly curious as to what this looks like.

You also mention that there is some lacquer missing, and that every time it is cleaned it "comes back" with more clear coat missing. Does this mean you are taking it in to have it chemically or ultrasonic cleaned on a regular basis?

[sacfxdx]

Conn's also get acid bleed sometimes too, right?

yes. My 88H did within a couple weeks.

[chromebone]

Conn's also get acid bleed sometimes too, right?

yes. My 88H did within a couple weeks.

I’ve seen that happen on Shires and Edwards, that’s not just a Conn-Selmer issue.

[hornbuilder]

Any solder joint on the instrument, from any manufacturer, has potential for acid bleed.

[harrisonreed]

I just brought it up because the OP might be mistaking acid bleed for an imperfect rose dip.

[hornbuilder]

[bitbckt]

I always order the rose dip with my pomme frites.

[BigBlueTrombone]

Back in the early UMI days, Conns were lacquered with the same gold tinted lacquer as Kings were during that era, but even then, the bell was rose brass(unless it was yellow brass model, of course). But they haven’t used that lacquer in many years.
You must be seeing the brass tarnishing in the spots where the lacquer has come off

That older technique is kind of exactly what I had assumed just looking at it, but if they dropped that I have no idea what may have caused this. I don’t think I’d consider that tarnishing though.

[ithinknot]

That's the seam from brazing the bell stem together. The filler material isn't 90/10, so you get a contrasting line, with no further dipping required... not a defect. It looks like they plasma weld the stem to the flare, which is why the line just stops, rather than there being a similar line running around the throat, but that's what a traditional stem seam looks like.

Factory lacquer blemishes are a shame.

If your washing of the horn doesn't lift any lacquer, but trips to the shop do, then it's their fault. Most likely overdoing it in the ultrasonic. Granted, some lacquers are more fragile than others, but if it can survive bathtime with you, it would almost certainly survive a more conservative chem clean in the shop.

[hyperbolica]

Thx for adding the pix. The first one looks like a little acid bleed on a nickel silver tuner leg. The second picture look like scratches or something physically hitting the tube out of the valve. Maybe in the case. The third one is the brazing from when they built the bell. The rose brass bell was probably brazed with yellow brass filler. There is nothing wrong with this, it just looks funny. Only the first on is a manufacturing defect, and tiny at that. The scratches on the F tubing is probably something that's happening to the horn and could be avoided. The colors along the seam of the bell are just part of the process. Two different alloys of brass.

[Blabberbucket]

Typically a bronze alloy is used in bell brazing.

[brassmedic]

If your washing of the horn doesn't lift any lacquer, but trips to the shop do, then it's their fault. Most likely overdoing it in the ultrasonic. Granted, some lacquers are more fragile than others, but if it can survive bathtime with you, it would almost certainly survive a more conservative chem clean in the shop.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the tech. Conn definitely switched the kind of lacquer they're using. I have had at least three newer Conn instruments where normal ultrasonic cleaning stripped the lacquer. It is to the point that I won't do cleanings on any Conn instrument built in the last decade. Am I "overdoing" the ultrasonic? I don't think so - I don't have problems with other brands. The Conn lacquer is just garbage. You can turn down the ultrasonic volume as far as it goes and it will still strip new Conn lacquer.

[Blabberbucket]

If your washing of the horn doesn't lift any lacquer, but trips to the shop do, then it's their fault. Most likely overdoing it in the ultrasonic. Granted, some lacquers are more fragile than others, but if it can survive bathtime with you, it would almost certainly survive a more conservative chem clean in the shop.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the tech. Conn definitely switched the kind of lacquer they're using. I have had at least three newer Conn instruments where normal ultrasonic cleaning stripped the lacquer. It is to the point that I won't do cleanings on any Conn instrument built in the last decade. Am I "overdoing" the ultrasonic? I don't think so - I don't have problems with other brands. The Conn lacquer is just garbage. You can turn down the ultrasonic volume as far as it goes and it will still strip new Conn lacquer.

I've had instruments where even a chem clean will cause lacquer damage. I'd guess there may be some issue with the final clean before lacquer that is causing the lacquer to not adhere properly to the metal.

[brassmedic]

I've had instruments where even a chem clean will cause lacquer damage. I'd guess there may be some issue with the final clean before lacquer that is causing the lacquer to not adhere properly to the metal.

Yeah, could be.

[tbonesullivan]

There was confusion around my statement about the rose dip. I have attached the best picture I can of the situation, but as you can see the bell has an uneven strip of yellow brass running the length of the bell. It looked to me like the rose coloration came from some sort of lacquer bath that gives the bell that color due to the unevenness of the line. I had assumed that the section of yellow brass was just a portion of the bell that wasn’t lacquered properly. That’s where I misunderstood, although I’d still like to know what the issue is. Additionally I attached pictures of blemished naturally on it from the factory.

Ahh yeah, that's the brazing seam on the bell stem / spout. Conn 88H bells are made from two piece of brass. The stem is a rolled piece of sheet brass which is brazed together at the seam. Usually rose brass is brazed using yellow brass, and yellow brass with rose brass, so that the seam can still be seen after it's polished up.

With Conn bells, the flare is made from a disk, which is then formed onto a mandrel. The stem and flare are then welded together, so there is no brazing seam where that join is.

That spot has been there since the horn was made, you just never noticed it before.

The other issues however, yeah those are lacquer loss. Could be from improper cleaning before lacquer. There are a few stains on the bell of my King 3B from the 1990s under the lacquer.

[AtomicClock]

What is a "Rose dip"?!?!?

It was a scene near the end of Titanic, when Rose took a quick swim in the ocean.

[Digidog]

What is a "Rose dip"?!?!?

An extended visit to the bawdyhouse?

[harrisonreed]

I said it once, I'll say it again:

Rose dip:

[ithinknot]

Usually rose brass is brazed using yellow brass, and yellow brass with rose brass, so that the seam can still be seen after it's polished up.

That's not correct - and, in any case, the choice of brazing materials is based on melting points, not aesthetics.

I have had at least three newer Conn instruments where normal ultrasonic cleaning stripped the lacquer. It is to the point that I won't do cleanings on any Conn instrument built in the last decade. Am I "overdoing" the ultrasonic? I don't think so - I don't have problems with other brands. The Conn lacquer is just garbage. You can turn down the ultrasonic volume as far as it goes and it will still strip new Conn lacquer.

Fair enough! That's pretty bad.

[BGuttman]

When I was working on coatings (for electronic printed circuits) we were always under pressure from RCRA and OSHA to eliminate solvents from the coatings. Acetate lacquers and epoxies came in solvent based solutions or suspensions. The Gummint wanted us to use aqueous based systems, although most of the materials they wanted us to use didn't perform that well.

I wonder if Conn wound up trying an aqueous based coating or even a UV cure and it wasn't as durable as the old LustreConn [epoxy] based coating.

[Dennis]

When I was working on coatings (for electronic printed circuits) we were always under pressure from RCRA and OSHA to eliminate solvents from the coatings. Acetate lacquers and epoxies came in solvent based solutions or suspensions. The Gummint wanted us to use aqueous based systems, although most of the materials they wanted us to use didn't perform that well.

I wonder if Conn wound up trying an aqueous based coating or even a UV cure and it wasn't as durable as the old LustreConn [epoxy] based coating.

Bruce, PCB manufacturers use some really vicious solvents like Chlorine Trifluoride. As John Clark noted of ClF3 in Ignition!

It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water—with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.

Vocabulary:
Hypergolic--an oxidizer and fuel that ignite on or shortly after contact, the ClF3 being the oxidizer in this instance.

If the EPA's suggested alternatives are unsatisfactory, manufacturers can continue to use the toxic solvents but they do have to comply with RCRA and TSCA. That seems fair to me, but I worked for a state-level regulator in a former life.

(Mandatory trombone content: No. You do not want a ClF3 based lacquer stripper.)

[BGuttman]

Just to point out:

When I first started in Printed Circuits I used 1,1,1-Trichloroethane and Methylene Chloride (dichloromethane) for dry film imaging (later changed films to use sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide solutions).

For the coatings (solder masks) the epoxies generally used Cellosolves or Carbitols (ethylene glycols) as solvents.

Later I used a photoimageable solder mask that used a carbitol solvent for coating and another glycol derivative (carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen) for the development (delineation).

At the time I stopped making printed circuits we had basically eliminated all chlorinated or fluorinated hydrocarbons from all of our operations.

Trombone content: the developer for the photoimageable solder mask was an excellent lacquer stripper, but rather dangerous to handle.

[Blenky]

I’ve gone through 3 88HT’ in 5 years, each replaced under warranty due to significant acid bleed on the bell section.

This time around I’ve traded up to a 88HTCL which I love, but not holding out hope that it won’t also bleed in 6-12 months, which seems to be the norm.

My advice is that if you have manufacturing cosmetic issues in warranty (5 years) get a replacement if you can, Conn won’t learn until they are hit in the pocket.


I have loved playing all of the HT’s I’ve owned but cosmetically they’ve been a bust. I have 55 year old Blessing B88 which looks as good today as it did when it was made!

[harrisonreed]

Acid bleed is purely cosmetic. It's going to keep happening. Even old Shires horns have acid bleed.

Turning it in for warranty every 6-12 months seems... excessive. Maybe move on to something with an unsoldered bell?

[LowBrassJunkie]

This is an issue across the board for CS products, Horns included.

[Blenky]

Acid bleed is purely cosmetic. It's going to keep happening. Even old Shires horns have acid bleed.

Turning it in for warranty every 6-12 months seems... excessive. Maybe move on to something with an unsoldered bell?

I disagree, I have two other instruments that are 5 years old with soldered bells and neither suffered this fate. I don’t think there are many other consumer products that retail at this price where you would accept such mediocrity!

I was planning to trade the HT for something with a less clunky valve and the trade in value would I’m sure have been affected considerably, so why accept this behaviour?

I will commend Conn on their warranty, they just replaced the instruments with no arguments.

The HTCL is….sublime

IMG_1258.jpeg

[Gameboy64]

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the tech. Conn definitely switched the kind of lacquer they're using. I have had at least three newer Conn instruments where normal ultrasonic cleaning stripped the lacquer. It is to the point that I won't do cleanings on any Conn instrument built in the last decade. Am I "overdoing" the ultrasonic? I don't think so - I don't have problems with other brands. The Conn lacquer is just garbage. You can turn down the ultrasonic volume as far as it goes and it will still strip new Conn lacquer.

I've had instruments where even a chem clean will cause lacquer damage. I'd guess there may be some issue with the final clean before lacquer that is causing the lacquer to not adhere properly to the metal.

Interesting. Do you have any experience with Bach horns? I’ve been considering getting mine sent off for an ultrasonic cleaning, but now I’m starting to reconsider.

[Elow]

Your instrument needs to get cleaned, the lacquer will fail eventually regardless. I cleaned an edwards that clearly had some problems with the lacquer adhering properly. All the lacquer on the edge brace flaked off, no where else. Had plating problems on the valve too. I lacquered the spots and emailed edwards about getting a replacement set of valves through the warranty. I think every large scale instrument manufacturer is forced to cut corners.