trombone support to bear the weight, take the stress off the left hand

[ezra]

It is becoming quite painful supporting the trombone with my left hand. Is there any accessory that can lighten the load so to speak?

[Pieter]

Many:

The neo tech ultra grip. Works very well for some and quite comfortable, very cheap, easy to install. Doesnt really work for me.

Calperpips grip. Works well for me, very easily removed and adjusted, slightly less cheap. It is what I currently use.
The Sheridan get-a-grip, similar to the calperpips, I have not tried it.

Various devices such as the shires bullet brace. Also works well.

Up to the ergo brass which takes all the weight off the left hand. I have one, and it was very useful whrn I really needed it. Very relaxed playing. However, also annoying to have to wear the harness and it takes some time to get your trombone in playing position. Or to use the pole, which for me did not work well. Since I no longer need it, not worth the hassle. I would only recommend it if you really need it.

[TromboneMonkey]

The ErgoBone is designed to do this: https://www.ergobrass.com/trombone/

[ghmerrill]

Take a look at the balance of the instrument as you're holding it. I discovered (with my bass), that an unbalanced horn (usually "weight-forward") is quite difficult to wrestle with. Would adding a counterweight be beneficial (you can experiment with this by wrapping some solder somewhere near the rear of the instrument)?

I use a bullet brace on my bass, and it's quite well balanced for me now, but I'm going to experiment with a removeable weight to see if I can get it to be just a little better -- and to compensate for a heavy mute when that's necessary. But even with my little old Olds Standard, the relative heaviness of the slide bothers me a little bit, and a more neutral balance might be more comfortable.

Also, go to Doug Yeo's web site and look at what he says about holding a bass trombone. Even if you're not playing a bass, his observations can be insightful and useful.

[GabrielRice]

I use the strap from Leather Specialties. Yamaha makes one also. Simple, inexpensive, and works best for me.

[harrisonreed]

I like the strap too. Osmun has the leather specialities one, but branded as osmun, of you can't find it through Hickeys or wherever.

[ghmerrill]

I've been meaning to try one of those, but the Leather Specialties site has had this page on that says they aren't taking orders. Didn't realize that Hickey's sells them (duh). Of course, I just ordered something else from Hickey's and it's on i's way. I guess I'll have to pay the extra shipping vig for a strap now.

[AtomicClock]

This looks interesting. Has anyone tried it?
https://www.thomannmusic.com/care_for_w ... ombone.htm

[AtomicClock]

ezra, what model trombone do you have?

[baileyman]

Try to observe where exactly the pain is coming from and why. Reproduce it without the horn. Sometimes pain is together with a swelling that makes it hard to determine exactly where it hurts, so it may take a few days to figure it out. But after you find the exact spot, experiment with changing your grip so that that spot has reduced stress. It may be that you'll need some kind of aid, or a weight program, or better left/right front/rear balance, or maybe just moving a finger or two to different locations.

[bitbckt]

I'll second/third/nth the LSCO/Yam strap. I use one everywhere but my 3BF - the bell brace and "Yeo" grip[0] suffices for me there.

The strap moves the weight of the horn on to the larger muscles of the upper arm from the tiny wrist and hand muscles. Unlike the various other braces, it requires no mounting hardware nor adjustment when moving between horns, and fits in your pocket.

[0] https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... nsion.html

[GabrielRice]

I've been meaning to try one of those, but the Leather Specialties site has had this page on that says they aren't taking orders. Didn't realize that Hickey's sells them (duh). Of course, I just ordered something else from Hickey's and it's on i's way. I guess I'll have to pay the extra shipping vig for a strap now.

Hickey's tells me Leather Specialties is moving their production facility, so everyone is backordered.

[ghmerrill]

Hickey's tells me Leather Specialties is moving their production facility, so everyone is backordered.

And yet: "Availability:Usually Ships in 24 Hours"

Maybe I'll try the Yamaha one.

[AtomicClock]

Leather specialties may not be taking orders, but the holding strap is one of the few things on their website listed as "in stock". Maybe worth a phone call anyway?

[tbonesullivan]

I would also look into possibly some exercises / stretches to help with your left hand/arm and pain. There are any number of causes for pain, and making sure you have a straight wrist is definitely important. Also having a basic level of upper body strength helps.

[ghmerrill]

Leather specialties may not be taking orders, but the holding strap is one of the few things on their website listed as "in stock". Maybe worth a phone call anyway?

Well, I got an order confirmation from them for the Leather Specialities product. So unless they follow that up with a cancellation (which is my default for backorders) ...

[AtomicClock]

Also, go to Doug Yeo's web site and look at what he says about holding a bass trombone. Even if you're not playing a bass, his observations can be insightful and useful.

This is the link:
https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... nsion.html

[ghmerrill]

Well, I got an order confirmation from them for the Leather Specialities product. So unless they follow that up with a cancellation (which is my default for backorders) ...

Well, they just cancelled -- said they just sold the last one.

[AtomicClock]

I have to say that I could never get comfortable with my Osmun strap. But I put an Edwards bullet brace on my 622G and am thrilled with the result.

We still don't know what ezra plays. If it is a straight trombone, then the straps and braces discussed here won't be helpful.

In general, I would first add/remove counterweights until a proper balance is achieved in 1st or second position (balance changes as the slide is extended). Second would be grip/brace/strap additions. That's usually not necessary for straight trombones, or Kings with their behind-the-brace levers. But everyone's hands are unique, I suppose.
Only if all that is inadequate, would I resort to the pegs, Ergobone &Trombone Stick.

If you're made of money, you could buy a Butler trombone with a carbon-fiber bell.

[Kbiggs]

I, too, have had left extremity (wrist, elbow, shoulder, forearm) pain at times in the past. Do everything you can to stop playing with pain. Don’t stop playing, but learn how to play without pain or, if needed, diminished pain. Pain causes tension, and tension negatively affects sound.

Things I’ve done that have helped:

1. See a doctor. They can recommend physical therapy and medications, as needed. A good diagnostician can pinpoint identify the exact muscles, joints, soft tissues involved. NSAIDS—ibuprofen, naproxen, etc.—can be very helpful, especially at times when the pain is greater than, say, 4 out of 10 (10=worst pain ever). NSAIDS help reduce pain and inflammation.

2. Incorporate some gentle stretching and breathing before every session you play. Exercise is essential to the modern brass player. Even better, start lifting weights (he says as he refuses to take his own medicine. I stretch and breathe, but getting me to lift weights is another story!).

3. There are a lot of devices to help the left hand hold the instrument, as people note above. They all work to some degree for everyone. You have to find one (or the ones) that work for you through trial-and-error:

Some hold the weight of the horn in the crook between the left thumb and forefinger like the Bullet Brace and the Sheridan Get-a-Grip (now defunct due to the recent death of Newell Sheridan RIP), and the Calder-Pipps Grip (same thing as Get-a-Grip, made in England);

Some hold the weight on the back of the hand (like the Rath brace and Yamaha/Klebsch/Leather Specialties straps);

Some hold the entire weight of horn (ErgoBone, and Care for Winds stick linked above).

I’ve used many of them. The ones I continue to use are the Sheridan Get-a-Grip and the ErgoBone. I haven’t used the Care for Winds stick but I know of at least one player who tried it and returned it because they couldn’t get the stick to stop moving around when they shifted weight, tapped their foot, etc.

Let’s face it: the trombone is a heavy, awkward, un-ergonomic instrument. You wouldn’t ask an alto sax player to hold their horn without a neck or shoulder strap.

Do what you need to now to prevent further injury.

I’m happy to talk/write more if you’d like more info. PM me if you want.

[Bach5G]

Is it possible to construct an ergonomic trombone? Left hand pistol grip?

[AtomicClock]

Is it possible to construct an ergonomic trombone? Left hand pistol grip?

I think the answer lies in professional "fitting" sessions, like they do at high-end bicycle shops.

[ghmerrill]

Is it possible to construct an ergonomic trombone? Left hand pistol grip?

Cimbasso

[DougHulme]

https://calderpipsmusic.com/

Mentioned elsewhere in other topics too. As mentioned earlier here very similar to the ones Newell used to sell. Excellent service when ordering.

Doug

[whitbey]

I had a problem with a bad nerve in my left arm. Nerve issue has faded.

But for the duration of the problem, I made a 6 inch round table that I mounted on a threaded rod I stuck in a cymbal stand. I used several layers of towel for padding and a furniture fabric sample to cover it. It put the weight on the elbow and got real easy to hold. I could move the stand around the edge of my chair and change the height so it was easy to be comfy.

[harrisonreed]

Well, I got an order confirmation from them for the Leather Specialities product. So unless they follow that up with a cancellation (which is my default for backorders) ...

Well, they just cancelled -- said they just sold the last one.

Buy from Osmun. Is made in the same place, same product. Just says osmun on it.

[ghmerrill]

Buy from Osmun. Is made in the same place, same product. Just says osmun on it.

They don't seem to list it. That is, they have a category for it, but it's empty.

[AtomicClock]

It seems to me that if one created a boom off the back, the balance point could be moved to over the shoulder. Then it would be fairly simple to build a support arm that reaches down to the shoulder itself. The left hand would control the horn but not have to hold it up (except when off balanced by mutes or extended positions). It could still be put on a stand or moved to insert/remove mutes (apparently the major Ergobone drawbacks). It would be much heavier, but that would only matter when making those brief maneuvers.

I'm imagining a 5 lb dumbbell weight supported several inches behind the tuning slide. Might be impractical.

I, of course, am not mechanically inclined. So take "fairly simple" with a grain of salt.

[WGWTR180]

It is becoming quite painful supporting the trombone with my left hand. Is there any accessory that can lighten the load so to speak?

What instrument do you currently own?

[timothy42b]

It seems to me that if one created a boom off the back, the balance point could be moved to over the shoulder. Then it would be fairly simple to build a support arm that reaches down to the shoulder itself. The left hand would control the horn but not have to hold it up (except when off balanced by mutes or extended positions). It could still be put on a stand or moved to insert/remove mutes (apparently the major Ergobone drawbacks). It would be much heavier, but that would only matter when making those brief maneuvers.

I'm imagining a 5 lb dumbbell weight supported several inches behind the tuning slide. Might be impractical.

I, of course, am not mechanically inclined. So take "fairly simple" with a grain of salt.

The cantilever support does work. You don't need anywhere near 5 lb, the weight on mine is just two 5/8 inch nuts on the end of some PVC pipe. List member Ken (went by Naj....) designed this years ago and it actually works.

It connects at the balance point of the trombone, usually somewhere around the area between upper and lower slide braces. The rod extends back behind your shoulder with the fulcrum on your shoulder and the counterweight back behind. It exactly balances the horn to weightlessness. The horn still pivots up and down at the connection.

I used it with a bad left wrist until a kind friend (and list member) loaned me an ergobone until I healed. I may have shared a video using it, not sure. The instructions are in the archives.

Yes it works. Yes it is almost free if you make it yourself. Yes the ergobone is at least 10 times easier.

What you are describing is slightly different. You are envisioning a more efficient counterweight. Think longer lever arm rather than more weight, but this still requires moving the balance point of the trombone from your hand back to your shoulder. That isn't easy to do.

[diminishedSeventh]

Wise grips work relatively well too, especially on straight horns that have rather wonky weight distribution.

[AtomicClock]

What instrument do you currently own?

His "stable" lists two straight horns: a 3B and a 897Z.

[AtomicClock]

The Trombone SpineSaver (https://trombonespinesaver.com/) looks like an interesting option.

[WGWTR180]

It's not just about weight. It's more about balance. And MORE about the instrument falling over to the left than falling forward. I was just having this discussion with a trombonist last weekend. He asked me why I do not use any hand support on my bass trombone. For some perspective I'm 62 and have been playing bass trombone primarily since 1986. All of my bass trombones have custom triggers to fit my hand. Every stock bass trombone I've ever tried is uncomfortable in one way to another. Once I figured this out I hand everything custom made and I've had zero issues. My Elkhart 88H is the only instrument I own that just sits perfectly in my hand with the stock F lever. The 2 instruments that I own that bother me the most are a King2BSS and a King 3BF. Why? I've figured out it's because my thumb is set back and up too much and it causes pain in my left thumb which sometimes radiates down into my hand. The thumb position would need to be changed to alleviate the pain and I'm not going to alter the instruments. No hand support will help that-I've tried most of them. No good. I'm fortunate that I've had very little physical issues supporting my instruments and, I guess from all that I read here, I'm very lucky.

[AtomicClock]

And MORE about the instrument falling over to the left than falling forward.

I wonder how well Butler's Satellite Counterweight helps to counteract the torque.

[WGWTR180]

This might solve 1 issue but not the reason I have issues-it won't change the thumb placement.

[hyperbolica]

Here's the thing that no one seems to get. All of these gizmos only take the load off the fingers and associated muscles. None of them takes any load off of the wrist, forearm, elbow or shoulder. The ONLY one that takes load off of the joints past the fingers is the ergobone. It's expensive and awkward, but it works.

[WGWTR180]

Here's the thing that no one seems to get. All of these gizmos only take the load off the fingers and associated muscles. None of them takes any load off of the wrist, forearm, elbow or shoulder. The ONLY one that takes load off of the joints past the fingers is the ergobone. It's expensive and awkward, but it works.

Yup!

[ghmerrill]

None of them takes any load off of the wrist, forearm, elbow or shoulder.

I think that if you actually draw the force vectors in the hand/elbow/shoulder triangle, this isn't exactly true. It doesn't reduce TOTAL weight in that system. bit it does shift the load and move its magnitudes from one tendon/ligament/muscle/bone to another. Think of a truss vs. simple 1-member span. Same weight, but different forces applied to different points in different directions.

But I'm no civil engineer -- just remembering some physics from long ago and far away. Don't hesitate to ridicule me if I'm wrong. But then I'd like to see the appropriate comparative force diagrams with proportional forces noted quantitatively. These various devices can't achieve anti-gravity (which in a sense the ergobone does, via IT's force vector ( ) ) but it doesn't mean that they can't/won't result in some significant improvements for some people by reducing stress on specific areas -- much as a counterweight does (even while making the overall system heavier).

[bitbckt]

That conforms with my experience. The strap very much reduces the load I feel on the tendons of my wrist, and entirely eliminates load on the fingers. The weight of the horn falls mostly on the extensor, brachial and deltoid muscles running up my arm. I feel this immediately when lifting a horn strapped vs. unstrapped.

Nothing will beat not holding any weight at all (“anti-gravity” is a great way to put that), but holding tension is terrible for my playing, and the strap relieves approx. all of it for me.

You do what works for you.

[baileyman]

It seems to me that if one created a boom off the back, the balance point could be moved to over the shoulder. Then it would be fairly simple to build a support arm that reaches down to the shoulder itself. The left hand would control the horn but not have to hold it up (except when off balanced by mutes or extended positions). It could still be put on a stand or moved to insert/remove mutes (apparently the major Ergobone drawbacks). It would be much heavier, but that would only matter when making those brief maneuvers.

I'm imagining a 5 lb dumbbell weight supported several inches behind the tuning slide. Might be impractical.

I, of course, am not mechanically inclined. So take "fairly simple" with a grain of salt.

The cantilever support does work. You don't need anywhere near 5 lb, the weight on mine is just two 5/8 inch nuts on the end of some PVC pipe. List member Ken (went by Naj....) designed this years ago and it actually works.

It connects at the balance point of the trombone, usually somewhere around the area between upper and lower slide braces. The rod extends back behind your shoulder with the fulcrum on your shoulder and the counterweight back behind. It exactly balances the horn to weightlessness. The horn still pivots up and down at the connection.

I used it with a bad left wrist until a kind friend (and list member) loaned me an ergobone until I healed. I may have shared a video using it, not sure. The instructions are in the archives.

Yes it works. Yes it is almost free if you make it yourself. Yes the ergobone is at least 10 times easier.

What you are describing is slightly different. You are envisioning a more efficient counterweight. Think longer lever arm rather than more weight, but this still requires moving the balance point of the trombone from your hand back to your shoulder. That isn't easy to do.

Must've been ten years ago when my hand ached for similar reasons. I used a dowel velcro'd to the tuning slide brace to locate a Bach counterweight behind my head. As on a target shooting bow. Front tilt disappeared, but also left tilt. Fortunately the pain went away and also the outrigger. (The Butler thing is in the right direction but needs to be further out.)

I've since had pain from gripping woodworking tools. To my great surprise I began to understand that most all grips employ muscles on both the extension and flexion side of the forearm simultaneously. They work against each other to achieve stability. So "neutral straight wrist" is misleading. Both sides work furiously to achieve neutrality unless the load is directly in line with the forearm. (Or if the wrist is fully flexed or fully extended, in which cases only one side of the forearm fires.) It's been a curious exploration to find postures to reduce this muscular opposition. Whenever the pain appears, my habits change. When it subsides, it's no problem, but I continue to use the habits.

[ghmerrill]

I've since had pain from gripping woodworking tools. ...

Yes, and for other hand tools I use as well. But only recently -- say over the last five years or so, and I'm 76 now. I've also lost noticeable muscle tissue in arms and legs (and likewise suffer from some leg/foot carmps). I've found that some use of milk of magnesia seems to eliminate or at least reduce this phenomenon (not sure of the biochemistry there ) The hand cramps are REALLY irritating -- often striking in the evening after a day of working with tools such as handheld drills, band saws, "jig" saws, etc. What often helps with the hand cramps is soaking the hands in hot water for a few minutes -- and then being careful not to trigger the cramps. Inner thigh cramps are the worst. Sometimes leg stretches help, but often only screaming is a possible response -- maybe helped by a really long hot shower.

I've got my bass trombone balanced in such a way that I don't get hand cramps from it -- because I "hold" it rather than "grip" it.

[AtomicClock]

I have to say that I could never get comfortable with my Osmun strap. But I put an Edwards bullet brace on my 622G and am thrilled with the result.

I got out my Osmun strap to remember exactly why I didn't like it. It may have been made by Leather Specialties, but it looks like neither strap in Aidan's video "Using a trombone strap". Sometime in the past 20 years, the designs must have been refined. Or Osmun had a different source back then.

Osmun strap.jpg

Anyway, the problem I have is that after inserting the hand, there is inevitable rotation to get the hand in place. The pad slides to and fro on the back of the hand until everything is in position. That's fine. But the (thin, sharp) leather that runs over the web of the thumb doesn't slide well, and ends up pinching the skin when weight is applied. Do other people have this problem with modern designs?

[harrisonreed]

You have that strap too loose, I think. That's why it's sliding around. Close up the Velcro.

[norbie2018]

I own one of those and I'd agree to tighten it up to prevent the sliding.

[bassclef]

Before I moved from straps to bell brace mounted devices, I found this one to be my favorite:

http://www.clebschstrap.com/

Just thought I add another option to this thread which I didn't see mentioned above.

[bassclef]

Here's the thing that no one seems to get. All of these gizmos only take the load off the fingers and associated muscles. None of them takes any load off of the wrist, forearm, elbow or shoulder.

I have found this to be correct. They just move the pain further up the appendage.

[AtomicClock]

You have that strap too loose, I think. That's why it's sliding around. Close up the Velcro.

It's completely tight when playing. While putting it on, things slide around and pinch.

[Burgerbob]

Before I moved from straps to bell brace mounted devices, I found this one to be my favorite:

http://www.clebschstrap.com/

Just thought I add another option to this thread which I didn't see mentioned above.

I used one of these until it fell apart, years ago. Are they really still in business?

[bassclef]

Before I moved from straps to bell brace mounted devices, I found this one to be my favorite:

http://www.clebschstrap.com/

Just thought I add another option to this thread which I didn't see mentioned above.

I used one of these until it fell apart, years ago. Are they really still in business?

I suppose I can't say for sure, might be worth a quick call to the number on that page. I bought my strap from that order form 2 years ago and it showed up I think 2 days later since I live about an hour away from Cleveland.