King single valve basses

AtomicClock · Post by **AtomicClock** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:35 pm

Back in the early 90s, when I was just entering college, I auditioned for the concert band on my 88H, and was assigned to the bass trombone chair. Having never seen a bass trombone before, I rented one from the university. They gave me a single-valve King. I don't think I ever looked for a model number. I plugged my 5G into it and played it for the rest of the semester.

It always felt like I could have accomplished the same on my 88H (the parts didn't actually go that low); either because I stuck with a tenor mouthpiece, or because the King was really just a Bb/F tenor trombone. Did King even make any single-valve basses? I'm guessing now it was a 4B or 5B.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:52 pm

There's only one, the 1480/1485, both of which predated the modern 4B/5B, but was also called the 5B near the end of its life. The 4B and 4B-based 5B (same horns in all ways, minus the bell) are tenors through and through, the 1485 is an early bass design much like a Bach 45.

chromebone · Post by **chromebone** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:21 pm

King never made a single valve bass. Some commercial players like Bart Varcelona and Alan Raph played King Symphonies, the 1480/85, but those were basically large tenors with a large throat. Alan Raph developed the Duo Gravis with King in the mid 60’s, which was the first true bass trombone that King made.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:26 pm

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:21 pm King never made a single valve bass. Some commercial players like Bart Varcelona and Alan Raph played King Symphonies, the 1480/85, but those were basically large tenors with a large throat. Alan Raph developed the Duo Gravis with King in the mid 60’s, which was the first true bass trombone that King made.

The 1480 is definitely a bass, it's just not what we would consider one by the stats today.

chromebone · Post by **chromebone** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:32 pm

The 1480 has a .546 bore, that’s pretty well a large bore tenor even by the standards of the 1950’s-60’s. The bell on it is 9” with a largish throat, but it’s basically the same throat a Benge 190 has. Robert Boyd and Allen Kofsky played 1480’s in the Cleveland orchestra on principal and second before their later 5b’s.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:40 pm

I've played one or two- they definitely sit in the bass camp. The bells are much larger in the throat (by the tuning slide) than the 190/later 5B throat.

Briande · Post by **Briande** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:23 pm

Looking at the 1971 King Catalog it was called the 1480 King 5-B Symphony Bass Trombone.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:42 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:35 pmDid King even make any single-valve basses? I'm guessing now it was a 4B or 5B.

Do you remember the layout of the wrap? The wrap on the 4BF and 4B-based 5B is different from the 1480.

As Aidan has said, the 1480 is more "small bass" while the 4B-based 5B is more "really big tenor".

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:54 pm

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:32 pm The 1480 has a .546 bore, that’s pretty well a large bore tenor even by the standards of the 1950’s-60’s. The bell on it is 9” with a largish throat, but it’s basically the same throat a Benge 190 has. Robert Boyd and Allen Kofsky played 1480’s in the Cleveland orchestra on principal and second before their later 5b’s.

The slide bore on a trombone has next to nothing to do with whether it is a bass or not. The 1480/1485 is actually a .536-.546 dual bore, but what makes it a bass even more than the larger throat is the extreme taper in the dogleg neckpipe, just after the valve.

I have owned two 1480s. The 1961 I own now does NOT like my tenor pieces at all, and is by far the happiest with my bass mouthpiece. It responds, feels, and sounds the best when played as a bass with a bass piece. It will do tenor things if you force it to, which I did on my first 1480 as I had no other option at the time, but it's very hard work. Not much easier than using a modern bass as a tenor.

Speaking of which, as an aside: Zoltan Kiss once had to use a Holton TR-180 bass trombone on a Mnozil Brass concert when the group's instruments got lost in transit. The video of that concert is on YouTube, and Zoltan played all his acrobatic lead parts on it beautifully. Just because he made it work doesn't mean the TR-180 is suddenly a tenor!

AtomicClock · Post by **AtomicClock** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:59 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:42 pm Do you remember the layout of the wrap? The wrap on the 4BF and 4B-based 5B is different from the 1480.

No, sorry. Too long ago. It had two tuning slides on the F wrap. But I suppose they all do.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:27 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:59 pm
JohnL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:42 pm Do you remember the layout of the wrap? The wrap on the 4BF and 4B-based 5B is different from the 1480.
No, sorry. Too long ago. It had two tuning slides on the F wrap. But I suppose they all do.

The earlier horns actually did not. You probably played a "modern" 5B, which is a tenor. In a pinch it'll get the job done... I'm sure some college inventory person saw that 9 inch bell and wrote "bass" down in a ledger.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:28 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:27 pmI'm sure some college inventory person saw that 9 inch bell and wrote "bass" down in a ledger.

When I was at Cal Poly SLO in the early 80's, I marched with a aging 1480 that was carried on the inventory as a bass (the rest of the bass fleet at the time was Holton TR183's and TR185's and a brand new Bach 50B3L). The two 88H's we had were on the inventory as tenors.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:22 am

My 5B is a bass. Not the same as my Bach 50, but definitely a bass! Doesn't work for me as a tenor.

Briande · Post by **Briande** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:42 am

Here is a link to some pictures. Blue pages are the 1971 catalog and orange are from 1973. If you believe the charts the bore size changes between 1971 and 1973.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xZfVEJN1NwmjkBrE7

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:08 am

Briande wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:42 am Here is a link to some pictures. Blue pages are the 1971 catalog and orange are from 1973. If you believe the charts the bore size changes between 1971 and 1973.

Thank you for posting this! It clearly shows the difference between the two versions (notice that the wrap changes from 1971 to 1973). It also tells us that King continued to use the "1480" model number even after the transition, so now we have to come up with a different nomenclature to distinguish between the two versions.

AtomicClock · Post by **AtomicClock** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:47 am

King continues to list the 1480 in 1976.
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/676

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:31 am

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:47 am King continues to list the 1480 in 1976.
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/676

I, at least, was not certain which version of the 1480/5-B that was (since there are no specs or pictures on the price list). Now we know that the change came sometime between 1971 and 1973.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:59 pm

Interesting, so the McCracken 5B (and 4B) came out before they changed all the model numbers and the 5B became the 2105. (Anyone know exactly what year they changed those?) So it's not any more specific to just say "1480" as it is to say "5B"...though I do think that when people say "1480" they usually mean the pre-McCracken small bass, and when they say "5B" they mean the McCracken big tenor. Since both were called both for a bit but each was also called just the one name for longer, it makes sense. But, for additional clarification, I think McCracken and pre-McCracken is a good enough way to distinguish the two.

As an aside, I take zero stock in what manufacturers (especially American manufacturers) describe their horns as in catalogs. Many manufacturers called anything with a valve a bass trombone for a long time, like the Olds A-20 or Conn 50H. Others came up with even wilder things...I can't remember what manufacturer it was, but one American maker in the early 20th century called their slightly larger small straight Bb trombone a baritone trombone! The marketing is pretty meaningless, so I don't think the fact that King also called the McCracken 5B a "Symphony (Bass)" makes it a bass anymore than them calling the pre-McCracken 1480 a bass does. All that matters is how the horn actually plays and sounds.

sf105 · Post by **sf105** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:11 pm

There's also the Bass 2B which, presumably, was a small bass to sit at the bottom end of a big band.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:18 pm

sf105 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:11 pm There's also the Bass 2B which, presumably, was a small bass to sit at the bottom end of a big band.

I believe this referred to early versions of the 1480, which were dual bore. Of course the 2B name stuck to the Liberty harder so they dropped the 2B moniker later.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:24 pm

I haven't found any catalog examples, but yes the 1480 was allegedly also called a 2B for a short period.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:35 pm

Doug Bert has a gorgeous 1485 at his shop.

https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... e-era-mint

SFA · Post by **SFA** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:00 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:24 pm I haven't found any catalog examples, but yes the 1480 was allegedly also called a 2B for a short period.

They are real.

I have one my dad bought new around 1955.

.536/.546.
Sterling Silver Bell.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:07 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:24 pm I haven't found any catalog examples, but yes the 1480 was allegedly also called a 2B for a short period.

How 'bout an actual horn? Here's one on Reverb.com:
https://reverb.com/item/72470661-king-s ... mbone-1964
Notice the 2-B marking toward the top of the bell engraving.

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:35 pm Doug Bert has a gorgeous 1485 at his shop.

https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... e-era-mint

It's advertised as .536" bore; I wonder if they've actually checked the ID's of the inners?

BTW: quick and dirty check for dual bore - gently insert a mouthpiece into the stocking end of each tube until it stops; if the insertion depth is different, it's a a dual-bore. Unlike the old "flip the outer slide" method, this works even on instruments like a King Liberty 2B where the ID's is different but the OD's is the same.

octavposaune · Post by **octavposaune** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:53 pm

Hi all, Kings .536" and in the old catalogs they didn't list the secondary (lower leg) bores, this includes the dual bore 2B small trombone and the 2B King Symphony. 2B a very long time ago meant dual Bore, but that was phased out by the mid 60s (I own a 1485 from 1963 that has 2B on the bell).

I have measured a bunch of 1480s and 1485s. Most do in fact have a .536" primary and .546-.547" lower tube. Just like 2B slide the smaller upper tube.has the same size stocking as the lower larger bore tube so the outers are interchangeable. On a Symphony there is quite a bit difference between the two bored, so the .536 stocking is rather thick. My 1963 example is dual bore as was the 1937 parts horn I bought 14 years ago for a project.

A certain vintage horn merchant owns an all red brass 1935 single .536" bore straight symphony with an 8.5" bell that sounds amazing. It is so old it predates the one piece inners and the stockings were soldered on. I ran into some 30s Kings that had one drawn and one soldered on stocking tubes from the factory (early 2B and another Symphony). The soldered on stockings were always the uppers...

I have the 1937 leadpipe somewhere, its short and fast tapered. Takes a regular shank not the later extra large diameter pipes.

The Symphony model was used as tenors in some orchestras. Apparently it was to appease a German conducter who eschewed American instruments, with a big bell German bass on the bottom. Hearsay from 90 years ago is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think of Symphonys as small basses, I think they are flexible in timbre and respond to many mouthpieces. As a Bach player I hate to say that the Symphony model does play better than most Bach 45s and the Symphonys are cheaper. I think the design of the original symphonys were really well engineered and it was a pity when King dumbed them down when simply slapping a bell on a 4B chassis and calling it a 5B

FYI, Kings all used to go by 4 digit model numbers. Late models 2102, 2193, 2104, 2105, 2106, 2107, 2108, but older models even dictated if they had silver bells. 1480 is an F attachment yellow bell, 1485 is a silver belled F attachment model. 1410 was a straight Symphony, and 1460 was a sterling belled straight symphony. Etc...

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:16 am

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:53 pm The Symphony model was used as tenors in some orchestras. Apparently it was to appease a German conducter who eschewed American instruments, with a big bell German bass on the bottom. Hearsay from 90 years ago is to be taken with a grain of salt.

George Szell, in the early years of his tenure with the Cleveland Orchestra, tried to convince the trombone section to play German trombones. When they resisted, the King Symphony Bass was tried as an alternative and Szell and the section both embraced it. For some time, the entire section, tenors and bass, were all playing the same model.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:31 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:24 pm I haven't found any catalog examples, but yes the 1480 was allegedly also called a 2B for a short period.

I haven't seen any catalog examples, but I have seen (in-the-flesh) a Symphony with a sterling silver bell that is marked
"SilverTone"
"2-B"

It had pretty ornate engraving, too. All that would date it to the pre-war period. I did not get the serial number. I played it briefly. This example did not like tenor mouthpieces. It was fine with a 3G but didn't care for the large-shank 6½ A I had. So the issue wasn't throat or backbore, because the 6½ A and the 3G have the same throat and backbore. I was told that the "2-B" marking referred to the fact that the instrument (like the horn we now know as the 2B) had a dual bore slide.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:05 am

This is all very interesting. I have long been curious about these 1480/5B horns. I have owned 3 and they were all straight-bores - .547 or thereabouts. So, it is clear that not *all* 1480's were dual-bore. We also know that *some* bells were labeled "2B." I am seeing a pattern!...

I currently own a 1480 from 1963 and a 1485 from 1960. I just measured them. The slides are straight bore - I get ID measurements between .546 and .550 at the stocking end of the inners. The outer diameter (OD) of the stockings are .580. I am using very good Mitutoyo calipers. These measurements are consistent with how Allied describes the (only) 1480 inner in their catalog: .550 bore and .580 stocking OD.

So, here is my theory: King made the 1480/85 models straight "547" bore and some .536/.547 dual-bore and labeled them (all?) "2-B". As for the reports that some were straight .536? Well, that is what the catalogs *seem* to suggest but Benn tells us that King was only specifying the upper slide bore. Has anyone actually had a straight .536 horn in their hands? If so, I haven't heard about it.

I will also add to the comments that the 1480/85 models played quite differently that the later 4B-based 5B models. I have played many examples of each and I do prefer the 1480/85. They are versatile tenors that sound great and have very good trigger and pedal ranges.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:23 am

King made 1480/1485 models in both dual bore (0.536/0.547) and single bore (0.547) but not at the same time. Some of the dual bores were labeled 2B on the bell, but none of the single bores. As far as I know, the 2105 models were only the "oversize 4B" -- single bore 0.547" with 9" bell. The term Symphony covers all of these models.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:35 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:23 am King made 1480/1485 models in both dual bore (0.536/0.547) and single bore (0.547) but not at the same time. Some of the dual bores were labeled 2B on the bell, but none of the single bores. As far as I know, the 2105 models were only the "oversize 4B" -- single bore 0.547" with 9" bell. The term Symphony covers all of these models.

I am no longer convinced that there was no overlap between dual- and single-bore versions.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:55 am

greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:35 am I am no longer convinced that there was no overlap between dual- and single-bore versions.

Absent a large-scale data collection effort, we will never know for certain. It makes the whole Olds Opera .547" vs. .554" question seem simple.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:17 pm

I started the previous thread essentially on the same topic (viewtopic.php?p=223865) because I'm interested in buying what I'm starting to see as a 60s or older 1480 536/546 bore with the larger bell throat/stem an offset in the neckpipe and an "old looking" wrap. I wanted to be sure of what I was getting. You seem to be able to pick them up reasonably if you're patient and confident you know what you're looking at. I don't want to have to buy multiple horns to hopefully get one of what I'm looking for. There's a refinished one on eBay that looks like what I'm looking for, but I don't want to pay the dressed up price. This and the other thread have been useful, but there's still a lot of equivocation about this and that, and absolutely no real data (like stem diameter measurements).

Briande · Post by **Briande** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:31 pm

I'm not sure if this add anything to the conversation, but couple of other resources other than the pages from the 1971 and 1973 catalogs I posted.

Here is a link to a 1927 King catalog:

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... by&o=OneUp

Here is a link to a comparison of the 1935, 1946 and 1963 King catalog on the H.N. White webpage:

https://www.hnwhite.com/trombonepage

It's all very inconclusive regarding when and even IF the bore sizes ever changed. But interesting material none the less for you history buffs.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:01 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:05 amI currently own a 1480 from 1963 and a 1485 from 1960. I just measured them. The slides are straight bore - I get ID measurements between .546 and .550 at the stocking end of the inners. The outer diameter (OD) of the stockings are .580. I am using very good Mitutoyo calipers. These measurements are consistent with how Allied describes the (only) 1480 inner in their catalog: .550 bore and .580 stocking OD.

I'm guessing the 1963 one has two tuning slides in the f-attachment and the tubing is routed so the longer tuning slide is on the side away from the player? Does the 1960 one have the same wrap?

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:14 am

Here is the 1963 horn: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tBAV9Z9vUxQWFkv98

The 1960 has the same wrap.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:07 am

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:14 am Here is the 1963 horn: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tBAV9Z9vUxQWFkv98

The 1960 has the same wrap.

Thanks. That's what I expected; a wrap very similar to what was used on early 3BF's.

Mine (from the late 1940's) has only one tuning slide in the attachment, and the loop with the tuning slide is on the player side of the bell. You can see what I mean if you look at the 1946 and 1963 catalog pages linked earlier in this thread.

I'd like to see someone do a thorough tiimeline for this model. The earliest ones I've seen are friction fit with no slide lock and have the valve oriented so the stop arm is toward the player; you can just make it out in the 1946 catalog page.

If you look here:
https://allthingskenton.com/table_of_co ... personnel/
there's a couple pics that show Bart Varsalona playing his King Symphony; it has the "inverted" valve.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:12 am

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:07 am I'd like to see someone do a thorough tiimeline for this model.

Completely agree! Really all King trombones need a thorough archiving. Would love to see the similar evolution in the 3BF's wrap.

In the 1480's case, finding the earliest ones will be a real challenge, since the 1480 appeared in King catalogs in the early '30s...maybe even earlier. One of the 1930s horns with a .508" bore but the same 9" bell is one of my white whales.

octavposaune · Post by **octavposaune** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:16 am

Hmmm,

My 1963 1485 has a dual bore slide and that same wrap

The 1937 symphony I pulled apart had a dual bore slide as well. But a single pull (no E pull) wrap, which I put on a 4BSS I used to own. The valve linkage was on the neck side for that 1937.

I would like to postulate that these horns are so old that many of these may have had newer slide tubes since the .536 tube is long out of production. I have seen some 1480s that were relacquered and had parts replaced including inner slide tubes.

My original 1485 was played for decades with bent tubes and rubbed the chrome right on one side of each inner tube. I bought a 4B slide to replace it. The dual bore slide is actually mellower than the 2 piece leadpipe 4B slide. But that slide offers a more tenory sound.

Benn

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:57 am

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:12 amIn the 1480's case, finding the earliest ones will be a real challenge, since the 1480 appeared in King catalogs in the early '30s...maybe even earlier. One of the 1930s horns with a .508" bore but the same 9" bell is one of my white whales.

Best of luck. I don't think King sold very many of those early f-attachment horns. Then again, I've managed to find 3½ Olds doubles from the Los Angeles era, including a bell section from around 1938, so keep looking. Be patient in your search, but quick to act when one does surface.

SFA · Post by **SFA** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:24 am

sf105 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:11 pm There's also the Bass 2B which, presumably, was a small bass to sit at the bottom end of a big band.

The following is quoted from 'hn white.com/trombonepage'.

"More popular was the models #1480 & #1485 with F attachment which was only built with a 9 inch diameter bell. ..................Later Sterling Silver bell models were sometimes engraved with 2B on them which is still a mystery".

Is this known to be accurate? Those marked 2B were all Sterling Silver bells?

Steve

.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:51 am

SFA wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:24 amThe following is quoted from 'hn white.com/trombonepage'.

"More popular was the models #1480 & #1485 with F attachment which was only built with a 9 inch diameter bell. ..................Later Sterling Silver bell models were sometimes engraved with 2B on them which is still a mystery".

Is this known to be accurate? Those marked 2B were all Sterling Silver bells?

That's one of those statements that's hard to verify; I've only see a few with the 2-B marking and (IIRC) they were Silver Sonics, but that's certainly not conclusive evidence that the marking only appears on Silver Sonics.

A couple data points...

1485 (Silver Tone), s/n 2948xx (1947) - dual bore, tenon nut, no slide lock. Single pull f-attachment, stop arm away from player, attachment tuning slide on player side. Both inners have soldered-on stockings.

1485 (Silver Tone), s/n 2932xx (1947) - dual bore, tenon nut, no slide lock. Single pull f-attachment, stop arm away from player, attachment tuning slide on player side. Upper inner has a soldered-on stocking, lower inner has an integral stocking (indicating that it's probably a replacement).

KingThings · Post by **KingThings** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:56 pm

This is now an older thread, but i will add a comment as a 1480 owner......it is all very confusing. I am always surprised to see the 2B dual bore versions in the same vintage as mine.....does the 2B use a small shank mouthpiece? What is the reason for making a dual bore 1480?

Mine is an August 1964 1480 Symphony and is single bore. I have the original King 29 mouthpiece. It was marketed as a bass trombone, but today it is closer to a big tenor, I suppose.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:34 pm

KingThings wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:56 pm This is now an older thread, but i will add a comment as a 1480 owner......it is all very confusing. I am always surprised to see the 2B dual bore versions in the same vintage as mine.....does the 2B use a small shank mouthpiece? What is the reason for making a dual bore 1480?

Mine is an August 1964 1480 Symphony and is single bore. I have the original King 29 mouthpiece. It was marketed as a bass trombone, but today it is closer to a big tenor, I suppose.

With the exception of the very early 1920s 1480s with a .508" bore, they were all dual bore .536-.546" with a (seemingly slightly oversized) large shank. They were just made so that you can still flip the outer slide over. And despite being small, they are still bass trombones.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:10 pm

Any 2B Symphony should be dual bore. It took a small shank mouthpiece. Later ones were single like yours and took a large shank mouthpiece.

Note: I have a Model 1115 "Symphony" (not marked as such) from 1930. Bore is much larger than the 0.508" shown on HNWhite.com. Doesn't seem to be dual bore. With leadpipe partially removed it takes a large shank mouthpiece. Original leadpipe took small shank. Bell was around 8".

It's a pity that the King catalog page for the 1130 Conservatory Bass doesn't have a bore size. Other makers of the time offered 0.562" bore bass trombones and it seems King should have also.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:33 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:10 pm Any 2B Symphony should be dual bore. It took a small shank mouthpiece. Later ones were single like yours and took a large shank mouthpiece.

Both of my late 1940's 1485's are dual-bore and take a large shank mouthpiece.

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:34 pmThey were just made so that you can still flip the outer slide over.

^This

The only way to know if a 1480 is dual-bore or single bore is to actually check the bore - the "flip the slide" method isn't applicable. If you don't have a caliper, the simplest way is to gently insert a large-shank mouthpiece into the stocking end of the inner slides and compare the insertion depth.

KingThings · Post by **KingThings** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:34 am

Very interesting. I wish there was more information on early White (King) instruments, but it seems some of you have historic examples. I would love to try one of the very early Symphony models (pre-1930s).

Anyway, my 1964 is for sure single bore.....its in the shop getting some shiny new inner slides. Is it a small bass or a large tenor? I dunno......

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:26 am

You can get a lot of information on older King instruments on www.hnwhite.com a site created by descendants of Henderson White, the founder of King. There are old catalog pages that describe the instruments until just after World War II.

Note that most of the "B" models are after the catalog pages, as are all instruments with 21xx model numbers.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:59 am

I just picked up a '61 1480, reportedly 536/546 w/9" bell. Should deliver this week. Anxious to compare it to some other horns.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:53 am

I would wager that any pre-McCracken 1480 that is truly single bore had the original dual bore inners replaced. Many 1480s that show up online seem to be trashed school instruments, so it's very possible many of them had damaged slides replaced at some point in their life. My 1961 1480 (yes, .536-.546/9" as they all were after the '20s) is certainly beat up, and is patiently awaiting some love from a tech.

We learned further up the thread that the McCracken 5B (a tenor, not a bass like the earlier 1480) was also briefly designated 1480 for a short time before the 21xx model numbers began, so those are out there as well. But the McCracken tenor 5B looks pretty different from the earlier bass 1480, so one of those would be easy to spot.

Sesquitone · Post by **Sesquitone** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:03 am

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:32 pm Robert Boyd and Allen Kofsky played 1480’s in the Cleveland orchestra on principal and second before their later 5b’s.

For many years with the Cleveland Orchestra before he retired, Allen Kofsky routinely played a Benge 190 with the attachment shortened to Gb, together with a dual-bore hand-slide (13.9 mm/14.3 mm) matched to the 14.3 mm attachment tubing. Jim Desano was principal at that time. Since the lowest (non-pedal) note available with the Bb/Gb combination is Db2, Allen told me that he kept an additional crook on hand to put the attachment temporarily in F for (very rare) occasions calling for a C2.