TromboneChat

Hi all,

I’m primarily a bass trombone player. I have some work coming up soon on tenor and finally pulled the trigger to upgrade from my student model accent Bb/F horn. I went with the 88HNV originally, after trying a dozen or so horns, but the horn I wanted sold and I ended up in back order hell.

So I impulsively got an 88HCL instead and I love it. The horn blows great my tone is exactly the profile I’m shooting for, especially the middle upper register. My one and only gripe, is I hate C3 and B2 with the trigger. Low stuff? Amazing. Upper trigger trills? Lindberg himself would be proud. It’s to the point where I’m regularly practicing in 6th and 7th position because I can’t get it to focus, it’s not as sparkly as Db, or Bb. It’s similar in my bass but I feel the difference is far more extreme on the tenor than on the bass. There’s a strong chance I’m the problem. However there’s other ideas in my head.

The 88HCL is weird. The f attachment wrap is almost completely free floating, except for two smaller unique braces towards the valve. The bracing from one side of the wrap to another is THIN, rough estimates 3/16” or smaller. I have a feeling this lack of bracing is a leading cause of the lack of focus compared to the rest of the horn. When looking at custom horn options I see that adding bracing often makes a horn feel more focused. Would adding another brace on one side of the wrap to the other make it more focused? Maybe a removable one? Perhaps bracing the tuning slide?

The horn I find is focused amazingly without the valve engaged, so I’m curious what people who know far more about this have to say.

Is this crazy? Thoughts? Opinions?

I used to have an 88HCL and I did something like that. My tech added a brace between the large leg of the tuning slide and the F-attachment tubing. I didn't do it to improve the blow, but it probably did, my motivation was to make it more stable. The brace by the neckpipe used to pop open when I pulled the F-attachment slide. The extra brace fixed that The 88HNV has a similar brace placement.

While the bracing certainly impacts the response of the instrument, I would not jump to the conclusion that an instrument modification is your answer. I noticed that you stated that you have a similar problem, to a lesser degree, on your bass trombone. That alone makes me think there might be other variables impacting your playing. My recommendation is to play in front of other experienced players/teachers and get their feedback.

In my studio, I see many players have problems with a few specific pitches (different pitches for different players) and the anomalies are caused by a wide variety of issues. Sometimes these issues take a little time and experimentation to figure out.

Don't forget that the horn was designed in combination with someone who uses an unorthodox mouthpiece and dampeners attached to the bell. What mouthpiece are you using?

It might be that your specific 88H has something going on but the ones I've tried do not have any issues with those notes.

It's probably a combination of things:

Misaligned valve in the engaged position
A solder blob or some other discontinuity somewhere inside the f attachment tuning
An air leak, maybe a joint the didn't get soldered in the f attachment
Something about the way you're playing that particular range. Those notes are not acoustically identical to 6th and 7th, and might need to be played slightly differently
Have somebody else play the horn for a different opinion.

Really stupid question… is the slide in the right place? The position and tuning of that octave may be different than other octaves and that uneasiness could just be forcing the pitch to play where it isn’t resonant.

FWIW, I’ve never had this issue on my CL valve, but it isn’t on an 88H and doesn’t have any added braces.

Cheers,
Andy

FWIW, I've found that you need to pull the F tubing quite a bit for it to play in tune, on the CL2000.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:18 am That alone makes me think there might be other variables impacting your playing. My recommendation is to play in front of other experienced players/teachers and get their feedback.

Will do! I’ve got a lesson in a few hours so I’ll discuss it with him

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:33 am What mouthpiece are you using?

Pickett 3 medium cup.

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:56 am It's probably a combination of things:

Misaligned valve in the engaged position
A solder blob or some other discontinuity somewhere inside the f attachment tuning
An air leak, maybe a joint the didn't get soldered in the f attachment
Something about the way you're playing that particular range. Those notes are not acoustically identical to 6th and 7th, and might need to be played slightly differently
Have somebody else play the horn for a different opinion.

I’ll have my teacher play it today. Thank you

elmsandr wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:05 am Really stupid question… is the slide in the right place? The position and tuning of that octave may be different than other octaves and that uneasiness could just be forcing the pitch to play where it isn’t resonant.

I do make sure not just that the slide is in place but also that my embouchure is “set” for the correct note as well, by lipping up and back down till I find the point of the most resonance, but even then it’s just dull.

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:20 am FWIW, I've found that you need to pull the F tubing quite a bit for it to play in tune, on the CL2000.

Same here.

After ruling out user error and/or tuning issues by having a teacher, colleague, etc verify your issue with the horn, the first step - like Doug Elliot said- would be a leak test and adjustment of valve alignment. Moving/adding bracing is far, far down the list of things I would consider when presented with an issue like this.