Impressions/experience of/with M&W trombones

[johntarr]

I might have a chance to try out several M&W large bore trombones. One is listed as a “Bach” style and the other a “Conn.” There’s a third with a gold brass one-piece bell, yellow brass slide with nickel crook.

Does anyone play one of these, and if so, how do you like it? I’ve heard that the quality is excellent so I’m hoping to learn a little more about how they play. The place selling them doesn’t offer very much information.

Many thanks in advance,

John

[JoeAumann]

They are fantastic. Best rotary valves on the market.

[hornbuilder]

John.
Just a little bit of info on the horns

The "Conn" styles horns have a 2 piece construction, with unsoldered bell rim. Usually in 90/10 red brass (but gold and yellow are also available.)

The "Bach" styles horns feature a 1 piece construction, with a soldered French Bead, and are usually yellow or gold brass, (with red brass as an option.)

The 1 piece gold bell, with yellow tube/nickel crook slide is maybe my most popular combination, and is often chosen by people who play Bach type horns. 1 piece yellow is also popular with those folk.

The 2 piece red bell, with a gold tube/nickel crook slide is popular with players who are more accustomed to Conn type sounds.

The valve is my own design, and I think it is the best on the market, too!!

Hope this helps.

[hyperbolica]

I played a 525 bore M&W horn at a show, and it was dreamy. If I ever had the extra bucks lying around, I'd surely have something built.

[Finetales]

They are fabulous. If I had the big bux M&W would probably be my first stop for large tenor and bass. (Haven't tried the smaller horns yet!)

[johntarr]

John.
Just a little bit of info on the horns

The "Conn" styles horns have a 2 piece construction, with unsoldered bell rim. Usually in 90/10 red brass (but gold and yellow are also available.)

The "Bach" styles horns feature a 1 piece construction, with a soldered French Bead, and are usually yellow or gold brass, (with red brass as an option.)

The 1 piece gold bell, with yellow tube/nickel crook slide is maybe my most popular combination, and is often chosen by people who play Bach type horns. 1 piece yellow is also popular with those folk.

The 2 piece red bell, with a gold tube/nickel crook slide is popular with players who are more accustomed to Conn type sounds.

The valve is my own design, and I think it is the best on the market, too!!

Hope this helps.

Thank you Mathew!

The information on the store’s website, “Brass Specialisten” in Stockholm, lists the two instruments as such:

M&W 322 1G YN (Bach) M&W 322 1G YN (Bach)

M&W 322 2Y GN (Conn) M&W 322 1G GN (Conn)

The Conn listing is a little confusing. Anyway, I will play them with an open mind… I hope.

What makes the valve the best on the market?

Best,

John

[hornbuilder]

Try it!

[hornbuilder]

Yes. That listing is strange.... I expect it may be a typo on Lars part.

[Lhbone]

They are fabulous. If I had the big bux M&W would probably be my first stop for large tenor and bass. (Haven't tried the smaller horns yet!)

Do you think you’d have the “big bux” if you pared down your 23 horns to 16-17?

To the OP, these horns are phenomenal. Definitely give them a go. The price point is in line with Shires and what Shires are you going to get that’s meticulously crafted by a single expert builder?

[Finetales]

Do you think you’d have the “big bux” if you pared down your 23 horns to 16-17?

Not nearly enough to afford a couple M&Ws, probably even if I sold every horn. The whole reason I can afford to have that many horns is most of them are nearly worthless, and I got crazy deals on the ones that do have value. Plus, I gig on almost all of them!

[johntarr]

Thanks for all the responses! As fate would have it, I got a chance to play one for a very short time. The Swedish Marine Military band was performing a concert in the city where I teach. Our school was able to have a few of our ensembles play for some of the Marine band’s players. The trombonist, a sub, had a M&W “Bach” style and let me play it. I didn’t get a chance to hear myself alone, just with the students but my first impressions were favorable. What I noticed most was that it felt good to hold, or fit my hand well. The slide was excellent and the valve felt very open.

In November, I hope to travel to Stockholm to try out three of the models they have in stock.

[pjanda1]

I'm really enjoying my 322 TIS. Two piece, gold brass bell and outers, red j bend, nickel crook. While it is hard to directly compare TIS and non TIS, so far (only had it for a bit, and had to take some time off playing), it is exactly what I was looking for--similar in some ways to my Elky 8H, but feels bigger and heavier and has more dynamic range at the top end. The valve is what I expected--feels great, not as open as a Thayer, but well suited to the horn. The touch of resistance makes the "valve" range really responsive.

The biggest surprises are firstly, that it keeps much of the liveliness of an old Conn, and along with that, brings some inconsistency from partial to partial as compared to, for example, my older Edwards. but in a good way for me. It is tough to compare in every way because it projects more than the lighter 8H, and correspondingly, lacks some feedback, but that has to be true to get the additional dynamic range. It also sounds more "modern," and will blend with other more modern horns more easily than an old Conn, and arguably, more modern clones, even by big builders.

Secondly, the high register is remarkable. This is the easiest large tenor I've ever played Bolero on. Even on my beloved 8H, I'd turn to a shallower mouthpiece (51C4 or something) if I can. This M&W, even though it is bigger and heavier than my 8H, stays REALLY open above "high" Bb. If the sound weren't entirely inappropriate and if I were ever going to be in decent shape again, one could play lead in a big band on modern lit all day. Somewhat relatedly, it is still nicely responsive at soft dynamics. In other words, it is what I was looking for when comparing my 8H to the Holton 156 I sold--more dynamic range on the top end than the 8H, MUCH better better soft dynamics than the 156, and a high register that isn't just better than the 156, but actually and unexpectedly better than the 8H and arguably, my 32H! (Not that it should matter much to anyone, but the "pedal" range is also stellar).

One clue it isn't just a Conn copy, at least to me, is that it doesn't love my favorite Conn combination--a vintage Remington pipe and a "long shank" Schilke mouthpiece. I'm guessing it is because the really open Remington pipe balances the tighter crook on a Conn slide. The experts might know better, but for me, that leadpipe and long shank mouthpiece combo in the M&W is just too open to behave well. But, the great news is that this horn slots in a way similar to what I love about the Remington/LS Schilke 51/51C4 combo on a Conn, even with a more modern leadpipe and a "normal" large shank mouthpiece.

I haven't compared this M&W to a non TIS M&W, so it is entirely possible that what I love about the high register and slotting are particular to the TIS rather than the M&W. At ITF, I did play an identical TIS and non TIS Greenhoe back to back, and they were incredibly different. But, to be fair, I've had many supposedly identical trombones (from big makers to boutique) play entirely differently. So, to my mind, the sample size of comparing one TIS horn to the same specs in TIB is too small to attribute differences specifically to the design.

On the leadpipe combo front, the stock M&W pipes (or what I received--yellow, gold, and nickel) are great. I like the BrassArk 1919 8H pipe even better in this horn, though. I STRONGLY suggest that anyone who gets their hands on one of these 322Ts try one of Noah's 1919 pipes if you can.

Finally, M&Ws are expensive, and I know my words are of limited persuasive power when I got mine second hand. That said, these are not nearly as expensive as they probably should be. The care Mr. Walker puts into both the design and build are extraordinary. Far from avoiding shortcuts, M&Ws are built the hard way in every aspect where it makes a difference. I sincerely doubt there is much of a margin on these horns, especially compared to instruments made in much much larger production runs. We are extraordinarily luckily as musicians to be able to find, custom, boutique, instruments that represent the finest work imaginable for a price that really isn't far above "factory" horns that reflect so much less time. In other pursuits, whether briefcases or watches or cars or whatever, actual value tends to decrease precipitously (diminishing returns) as you go up the price scale. Here, the opposite is true--you are getting so much more than you are paying for when comparing to nearly any other maker in nearly any market position. (As I've shared before, I don't limit this observation to M&W).

We mythologize old boutique horns--NY Bachs, Williams, etc. I'm sitting feet from horns I play routinely that are more than 75 years old. But, I don't hesitate to say M&Ws are more carefully built and benefit from more design development than any trombone ever made. They can only build so many trombones this way at this price. Do you ever dream about folks who had the chance to visit the NY Bach factory or buy a Williams or Minnick new? You are that guy now. If you can, don't wait and miss the chance to buy something built to your exact desires that is even better than the old stuff and where you can consult directly with the guy who will make it.

Paul

[Posaunus]

I'm really enjoying my 322 TIS. ...
If you can, don't wait and miss the chance to buy something built to your exact desires that is even better than the old stuff and where you can consult directly with the guy who will make it.
Paul

Paul,

That's what I call a ringing endorsement! We live in lucky times.

[Specialk3700]

I played one of the basses they had at the Midwest clinic in 2018. Can't really describe how outstanding of an instrument it was. Just picking it up I could immediately tell a difference in build quality compared to any other horn I tried at the show or since. Absolutely incredible craftsmanship. Still the best playing bass I've tried. By far the best valve I've tried and the feedback from the horn was incredible. Sound was outstanding as well. If I was in the market for a new horn it would be an M&W for sure.

[harrisonreed]

Yes the build quality on the M&W is without a doubt the best I've seen. Beautiful trombones. Slide action to die for. I was not surprised at all by the video showing how they account for thermal expansion in the solder. It's apparent just looking at the trombone and holding it.

I do not own or use one, but I would like to try one again in a good room, not in the ATW workshop setting.

[EriKon]

I tried a custom med bore horn (TIS, red brass) for a few notes over here and it was an astonishing instrument, both the playing side and the optics. Unbelievable rich and full sound, very easy to play throughout the entire range, good slide, the best valve (shared 1st place with the Lätzsch valves). Absolute top notch instrument craftsmanship.

[hyperbolica]

I tried the first 525 bore straight horn he made at a ATW show. That horn almost ended my marriage. If I had come home with that, it would have been as bad as if I had brought home an underwear model. I took a water bottle instead. I still get a little reminder of our time together every time I lube a slide... Really a wonderful horn. I'm almost sorry I tried it because now that I know a trombone like that exists, it kind of diminishes everything else I have.

[Doug Elliott]

Kinda like that underwear model?

[hyperbolica]

Kinda like that underwear model?

[johntarr]

I tried the first 525 bore straight horn he made at a ATW show. That horn almost ended my marriage. If I had come home with that, it would have been as bad as if I had brought home an underwear model. I took a water bottle instead. I still get a little reminder of our time together every time I lube a slide... Really a wonderful horn. I'm almost sorry I tried it because now that I know a trombone like that exists, it kind of diminishes everything else I have.

I didn’t know that there were underwear models at trombone workshops. Now I understand why there are so popular.

[johntarr]

I'm really enjoying my 322 TIS. Two piece, gold brass bell and outers, red j bend, nickel crook. While it is hard to directly compare TIS and non TIS, so far (only had it for a bit, and had to take some time off playing), it is exactly what I was looking for--similar in some ways to my Elky 8H, but feels bigger and heavier and has more dynamic range at the top end. The valve is what I expected--feels great, not as open as a Thayer, but well suited to the horn. The touch of resistance makes the "valve" range really responsive.

The biggest surprises are firstly, that it keeps much of the liveliness of an old Conn, and along with that, brings some inconsistency from partial to partial as compared to, for example, my older Edwards. but in a good way for me. It is tough to compare in every way because it projects more than the lighter 8H, and correspondingly, lacks some feedback, but that has to be true to get the additional dynamic range. It also sounds more "modern," and will blend with other more modern horns more easily than an old Conn, and arguably, more modern clones, even by big builders.

Secondly, the high register is remarkable. This is the easiest large tenor I've ever played Bolero on. Even on my beloved 8H, I'd turn to a shallower mouthpiece (51C4 or something) if I can. This M&W, even though it is bigger and heavier than my 8H, stays REALLY open above "high" Bb. If the sound weren't entirely inappropriate and if I were ever going to be in decent shape again, one could play lead in a big band on modern lit all day. Somewhat relatedly, it is still nicely responsive at soft dynamics. In other words, it is what I was looking for when comparing my 8H to the Holton 156 I sold--more dynamic range on the top end than the 8H, MUCH better better soft dynamics than the 156, and a high register that isn't just better than the 156, but actually and unexpectedly better than the 8H and arguably, my 32H! (Not that it should matter much to anyone, but the "pedal" range is also stellar).

One clue it isn't just a Conn copy, at least to me, is that it doesn't love my favorite Conn combination--a vintage Remington pipe and a "long shank" Schilke mouthpiece. I'm guessing it is because the really open Remington pipe balances the tighter crook on a Conn slide. The experts might know better, but for me, that leadpipe and long shank mouthpiece combo in the M&W is just too open to behave well. But, the great news is that this horn slots in a way similar to what I love about the Remington/LS Schilke 51/51C4 combo on a Conn, even with a more modern leadpipe and a "normal" large shank mouthpiece.

I haven't compared this M&W to a non TIS M&W, so it is entirely possible that what I love about the high register and slotting are particular to the TIS rather than the M&W. At ITF, I did play an identical TIS and non TIS Greenhoe back to back, and they were incredibly different. But, to be fair, I've had many supposedly identical trombones (from big makers to boutique) play entirely differently. So, to my mind, the sample size of comparing one TIS horn to the same specs in TIB is too small to attribute differences specifically to the design.

On the leadpipe combo front, the stock M&W pipes (or what I received--yellow, gold, and nickel) are great. I like the BrassArk 1919 8H pipe even better in this horn, though. I STRONGLY suggest that anyone who gets their hands on one of these 322Ts try one of Noah's 1919 pipes if you can.

Finally, M&Ws are expensive, and I know my words are of limited persuasive power when I got mine second hand. That said, these are not nearly as expensive as they probably should be. The care Mr. Walker puts into both the design and build are extraordinary. Far from avoiding shortcuts, M&Ws are built the hard way in every aspect where it makes a difference. I sincerely doubt there is much of a margin on these horns, especially compared to instruments made in much much larger production runs. We are extraordinarily luckily as musicians to be able to find, custom, boutique, instruments that represent the finest work imaginable for a price that really isn't far above "factory" horns that reflect so much less time. In other pursuits, whether briefcases or watches or cars or whatever, actual value tends to decrease precipitously (diminishing returns) as you go up the price scale. Here, the opposite is true--you are getting so much more than you are paying for when comparing to nearly any other maker in nearly any market position. (As I've shared before, I don't limit this observation to M&W).

We mythologize old boutique horns--NY Bachs, Williams, etc. I'm sitting feet from horns I play routinely that are more than 75 years old. But, I don't hesitate to say M&Ws are more carefully built and benefit from more design development than any trombone ever made. They can only build so many trombones this way at this price. Do you ever dream about folks who had the chance to visit the NY Bach factory or buy a Williams or Minnick new? You are that guy now. If you can, don't wait and miss the chance to buy something built to your exact desires that is even better than the old stuff and where you can consult directly with the guy who will make it.

Paul

Thanks Paul, for your detailed and thorough review, I really appreciate it. I will be able to try three of these horns in the beginning of November and am really excited. Convincing my wife (and myself for that matter) that I need to spend so much on an instrument is another story. The two new models for sale in Stockholm are considerably more expensive than advertised on the M&W website.

[Chatname]

The M&W trombones are amazing, I play one every day since years and can only highly recommend them. Regarding prices; if you add customs and taxes and VAT and a little provision for the shop providing the instruments , are they unreasonable?
I personally find it wonderful that brass shops around the world take the financial risks to provide us with instruments from small distant boutique builders, and give us the opportunity to try them in person.
I can hardly think you’ll be disappointed about the quality of the M&W trombones. Good luck however with convincing yourself (and the wife!) about buying one!

[Dennis]

Convincing my wife (and myself for that matter) that I need to spend so much on an instrument is another story. The two new models for sale in Stockholm are considerably more expensive than advertised on the M&W website.

You went wrong when you got married: marry a woodwind player (I got a flutist) or (if your bank account is bigger) a string player. Then you let her buy her dream instrument (in my wife's case it was a new hand-made Haynes).

See, when you tell a woodwind player how much a new M&W costs, she won't flinch at all.

[harrisonreed]

Two musicians tied legally and financially convincing each other to buy the best examples of their respective instruments?

star-trek-spock.gif

[Dennis]

Two musicians tied legally and financially convincing each other to buy the best examples of their respective instruments?

That's another way of looking at it. The Haynes was purchased with part of the proceeds after we closed her mother's estate. It's her mom's last gift to my wife.

I don't have sentimental justification like that for an M&W bass. I have a very fine Bach 50G with in-line Thayer valves, but I am pretty sure I want one.

[johntarr]

The M&W trombones are amazing, I play one every day since years and can only highly recommend them. Regarding prices; if you add customs and taxes and VAT and a little provision for the shop providing the instruments , are they unreasonable?
I personally find it wonderful that brass shops around the world take the financial risks to provide us with instruments from small distant boutique builders, and give us the opportunity to try them in person.
I can hardly think you’ll be disappointed about the quality of the M&W trombones. Good luck however with convincing yourself (and the wife!) about buying one!

I didn’t mean to say that the prices are unreasonable, just a fair bit higher than in the USA. VAT from the USA to Europe is quite high, and of course I feel that the shop deserves their share for taking the risk. If I find an instrument that suits me, I will find a way to finance it.

[johntarr]

Well.. I tried, and ended up purchasing the M&W here in Sweden. The horn is truly incredible. As has been said, it is easy to play in the high register and the valve register is great as well. Before I got this horn, I would often play my alto for certain things and a Conn 72H for lower things. The M&W can do both quite well.

Colleagues and friends who’ve listened say the sound is great, and my trumpet colleague even said, “it sounds like the horn was made for you.” Yes, the build quality is fantastic and even though it’s heavy horn, it balances really well making it easy to hold. I don’t know how it is possible to have such a great sounding horn that plays so easily in all registers.

I’ve been fortunate in my life to have tried many fine horns and own several but there was always something that was difficult, the M&W brings it all together for me.

Thank you Matthew, for making such a fine instrument!

[OneTon]

You went wrong when you got married: marry a woodwind player (I got a flutist) or (if your bank account is bigger) a string player. Then you let her buy her dream instrument (in my wife's case it was a new hand-made Haynes).

My Haynes came from a large discount department store chain. They’re hand made, though I expect mass produced being from Vietnam. I wear them proudly anyway, neat and dear to my heart.

[hornbuilder]

Thanks John!! Enjoy!!

The kind words mean a lot. I am very proud of these instruments, I put a lot of focused time and care into every single one. To say they are a Labour or Love for me would not be too strong a term.