Bach "Corporation" horns

[Conn100HGuy]

I recently acquired a 1970 Bach 36B "Corporation" trombone. Over the years, I've seen many listing that emphasize the moniker without knowing its significance. Could some of you Bach experts enlighten me? Thanks!

[Rrova]

For trombones there's a feeling (myth?) that Corporation era horns (late 60s through 70s, maybe some 80s?) were better made or the parts were better, or some combo of the two. With Bach it seems there are good and bad examples throughout their history. For me if I see a 50 Corporation bell for sale it always grabs my attention. But then I realize you can't make any generalization unless you see/feel/play it. Now, Corporation era trumpets are a different thing all together. Most of the Corporation era had nickel silver balusters on the valve blocks. My son's C trumpet is from the late 70s. I didn't realize it had the nickel silver balusters until our tech took out the valves and showed me (it silver-plated). He said, "cool!" Ultimately if you're happy with how it plays, then its good! Enjoy!!

[Conn100HGuy]

Thank you!

[Elow]

Old = different sound than a modern instrument like shires or edwards. Some people go for that sound, others go for a different sound.

[Burgerbob]

Old = different sound than a modern instrument like shires or edwards. Some people go for that sound, others go for a different sound.

I'm not sure that's totally accurate. My corp bells sound like modern basses on a basic level. An entire corp 50B won't, but you could say the same about a modern 50B too.

[Posaunus]

Old = different sound than a modern instrument like shires or edwards. Some people go for that sound, others go for a different sound.

Think you could really consistently distinguish "old" from "modern" in a blind audition where you couldn't listen with your eyes?

[Elow]

Old = different sound than a modern instrument like shires or edwards. Some people go for that sound, others go for a different sound.

Think you could really consistently distinguish "old" from "modern" in a blind audition where you couldn't listen with your eyes?

30 feet away… no. When i’m playing with the bell a couple inches away i do hear a different color between a modern Bach 42 and my vintage 42s. Maybe i’m hearing with my eyes, or i’m not far enough on my playing journey.

[Burgerbob]

I think you could say the same thing about even a early '00s horn and one made this year, though.

[Bach5G]

Old = different sound than a modern instrument like shires or edwards. Some people go for that sound, others go for a different sound.

Or do Shires and Edwards sound like Shires and Edwards?

I doubt I’d be able to tell the difference.

[Posaunus]

Think you could really consistently distinguish "old" from "modern" in a blind audition where you couldn't listen with your eyes?

30 feet away… no. When i’m playing with the bell a couple inches away i do hear a different color between a modern Bach 42 and my vintage 42s. Maybe i’m hearing with my eyes, or i’m not far enough on my playing journey.

I wonder how a "modern" Bach 42 compares with a contemporary Shires or Edwards or M&W or ...

[Elow]

Every brand sounds different. Bach has a distinctive sound, no matter what era each instrument with have a slightly different flavor of sound. I believe the corp era and MV era to have a different sound profile of their modern counterparts. Of course this is all my opinion and i have no real evidence to back this up.

[Burgerbob]

They do, for sure. But I wouldn't necessarily call it old, either.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

If you gave a Corporation Bach, Shires and Edwards to some of my lazy 4th grade band trombone students, I doubt you would be able to distinguish the brands on a blind audition. Actually, I’m rather sure that you would not be able to figure out that they were playing trombones. You would probably start guessing barnyard animals before naming instruments.

My point being that the musician is the number one ingredient that determines sound. Given a little preparation time, I’m pretty sure that any good trombonist could make those three makes sound exactly the same.

[Posaunus]

... I’m pretty sure that any good trombonist could make those three makes sound exactly the same.

Would that sound be "old" or "modern?" (Whatever that means.)

My "old" Elkhart-era Conn 88H does sound pretty much like a "modern" (Conn-like) Shires when I play each.
But a little different than an (older or newer) Bach.
I think!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

We should just call your sound “timeless.”

[BGuttman]

We should just call your sound “timeless.”

As long as that's not his rhythm

[GabrielRice]

I'm sure there are exceptions to all of this, but...

Typically, Corporation era Bach bells are a bit lighter than later ones, and they very often (always? almost always?) have steel bead wire rather than brass. You can tell that by holding a magnet to the bead. Steel bead wire responds differently than brass; both the initial articulation and the slot of the sustain feel a bit more secure to me. That's not to say excellent bells are not made with brass wire as well.

As far as complete instrument assembly, the corporation era Elkhart instruments - especially the earlier ones - are typically put together very well. I've heard a couple of possible reasons for that. One is that the Bach Corporation under Selmer hired many of the people who had been left behind when Conn left Elkhart. Another is sheer production numbers; you can look at a Bach serial number list here: https://www.bachbrass.com/resources/serial-numbers and see the incredible rate at which production increased over the course of the 70s and into the 80s (assuming the serial numbers are sequential).

Having worked in the industry, I can tell you that probably the biggest difference between the "big" manufacturers and the "boutique" manufacturers is the sheer number of hours put into the production of each instrument.